Working Dog Forums banner
1 - 20 of 77 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,869 Posts
Very nice!
He handled that ladder well.
It's always funny seeing some young dogs learning to climb and keep sticking their head through the rungs and having no clue how to go up.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,751 Posts
It is really great they can do it, but as a silly European..I can´t stop thinking about the early wrecked joints..and still can´t see the advantage for an early ob routine like this..are they gonna be circusdogs or workingdogs?
 
Joined
·
303 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Selena van Leeuwen said:
It is really great they can do it, but as a silly European..I can´t stop thinking about the early wrecked joints
Silly indeed. Early wrecked joint? They may have been wrecked to begin with. Plain ignorance or lame excuses to hide weaknesses in breeding, I should say. So what about in the olden and golden days of these great working breeds when farmers brought their pups at a very early age in the working field to learn from the adults? Wreck joints?

If I remember correctly, "circus dogs" was coined by the late Col. Konrad Most in his book "Training Dogs-A manual" to refer to sportdogs, no offense meant.

Selena van Leeuwen said:
..and still can´t see the advantage for an early ob routine like this..are they gonna be circusdogs or workingdogs?
Just a slight correction, Selena. No routines, no drills, no food, tug or toy rewards like you do. While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you more so if you don't have food or toy rewards, those pups obey regardless of difficulties. Now think what effect will this kind of foundation bring in future serious work between the dog/man teams. If a pictures paints a thousand words, that video should say millions. Just think....

Best regards... :wink:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,751 Posts
Jose Alberto Reanto said:
Selena van Leeuwen said:
It is really great they can do it, but as a silly European..I can´t stop thinking about the early wrecked joints
Silly indeed. Early wrecked joint? They may have been wrecked to begin with. Plain ignorance or lame excuses to hide weaknesses in breeding, I should say. So what about in the olden and golden days of these great working breeds when farmers brought their pups at a very early age in the working field to learn from the adults? Wreck joints?

Maybe so, but why let them do unnatural thing which can hurt or misdevelop joints in the growth.

If I remember correctly, "circus dogs" was coined by the late Col. Konrad Most in his book "Training Dogs-A manual" to refer to sportdogs, no offense meant.

I don´t know the man or the book. And why should i be offended? I think these are more like circustricks, than usefull for a workingdog.

Selena van Leeuwen said:
..and still can´t see the advantage for an early ob routine like this..are they gonna be circusdogs or workingdogs?
Just a slight correction, Selena. No routines, no drills, no food, tug or toy rewards like you do. While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you more so if you don't have food or toy rewards, those pups obey regardless of difficulties. Now think what effect will this kind of foundation bring in future serious work between the dog/man teams. If a pictures paints a thousand words, that video should say millions. Just think....

Best regards... :wink:
Oke, you have to learn to do this, right?
And you say your self "those pups obey regardless of difficulties", so it is an ob exercise, right?
And they must obey...regardless what so ever, so it is an excercise in the obligationphase, right?

IMO if there is to much pressure on young dogs, they won´t grow out to their full genetic potention. So puppies doesn´t do anything except play a lot.

To summarize: our views on raising a puppy to working dogs are like day and night difference. :wink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,011 Posts
I don't see the video as circus dog type stuff. That's a pup wanting to obey, nice pup! I also don't see the wrecked joint thing either.

I don't believe any of my dogs would climb a ladder, i'd be afraid to try it. My pup elvis tried following me one time up into the attic and he fell, scared the crap out of me! THUMP! I think your dogs are cool Al,

The other Al
 
Joined
·
303 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Selena van Leeuwen said:
Maybe so, but why let them do unnatural thing which can hurt or misdevelop joints in the growth.
That's just exactly what that video should have told you. To develop "misdeveloped joint" when working them young is a misconception. It may have been that those joints were already a "wreck" to begin with. Obviously those pups were worked even earlier to be able to achieve such levels of agility, confidence, trust and bond with their handlers and obedience as seen in that video. If they have wrecked their jonts as you say due to "ünnatural training" and working them early, in no way could those exercises be possible now. Of course, just like in any endeavor, it goes to say the handlers should know what they're doing.


Selena van Leeuwen said:
I don´t know the man or the book. And why should i be offended? I think these are more like circustricks, than usefull for a workingdog.
I didn't know that a dog obeying its handler to come to him while combining agility would constitute a trick. I hope that training a dog to scale a fence or a high wall to come to the aid of its handler in defense work will not be regarded a trick as well. I hope dogs that goes in confidence remotely controlled by their handlers while going thru rubbles and collapsed structures doing rescues will not be treated as circusdogs. Also, I hope that when you put your pup alone with access to nearby obstacles like logs, chairs, ladders or whatever, you wouldn't be surprised to see your pup on top of any of them on its own. By then, you would have realized that agility is natural and dogs are naturally drawn to man.

Selena van Leeuwen said:
Oke, you have to learn to do this, right?
Definitely!!! How? First, by not listening to some common beliefs but instead hold that leash and work those dogs/pups. It's common knowledge that these creatures (left to themsleves) would be accomplished hunters and predators at about a year of age, else they wouldn't survive. It's like as if the Creator, in his Infinite Wisdom, made these creatures helpless at birth when they're not.


Selena van Leeuwen said:
And you say your self "those pups obey regardless of difficulties", so it is an ob exercise, right?
And they must obey...regardless what so ever, so it is an excercise in the obligationphase, right?

IMO if there is to much pressure on young dogs, they won´t grow out to their full genetic potention. So puppies doesn´t do anything except play a lot.
Too much pressure? Don't you know pups cannot be forced into an exercise? Was there any trickery, bribery or coercion done by any handler in that video, or was it just plain recalling the pup?

Anyway, that's just like what most say and believe in, and I really want to believe you, Selena. I would look like a fool and an outcast if I didn't. But the dogs says otherwise when they reveal themselves in actual work. So let me just be a fool and an outcast believing that the truth is really behind those dogs when working them in their natural state in any environments. So sorry, your opinions may be very very popular, but I find them unacceptable and would readilly put them under the myth section.

Selena van Leeuwen said:
To summarize: our views on raising a puppy to working dogs are like day and night difference. :wink:
Of course, I'm into working the dogs and making them functional in any environment and in any prevailing working conditions. You're into routines and titling them. So who's into circus training?

By the way, Selena, know that I'm not trying to be rude in this exchange. That cannot happen since you're more popular and acceptable in this forum than I will ever be. It's just me stating passionately what I believe to be true out of working the dogs/pups. So I'M SORRY if I sound offensive. I have a number of Dutch friends and I find them very very nice people.

I apologize to the other forum members as well.

Best regards... :wink:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,983 Posts
Jose Alberto Reanto said:
Just a slight correction, Selena. No routines, no drills, no food, tug or toy rewards like you do. While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you more so if you don't have food or toy rewards, those pups obey regardless of difficulties.
Please don't make assumptions about other peoples dogs, I am sick of these generalizations between "real dogs" and "sport dogs", and frankly its pretty annoying.

What I would like to see is the video of the learning process on a green dog, including the parts that people tend to edit out because it doesn't look as nice or as pretty as the finished product.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts
Jose Alberto Reanto said:
....... While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you more so if you don't have food or toy rewards.....
Well, I made a sharp retort to this earlier and then edited it away immediately because it seemed to be between Al and Selena.

But I am going to reply -- less sharply. :lol:

The whole reward-in-teaching-phase thing has been beaten into the ground. I'm old enough to have seen both ways as widely accepted training methods, and I can't understand now why I didn't use tangible rewards in the teaching phase of obedience all along. But there's no need to revive that neverending argument here.

BUT --- the instructional phase is not the only phase; it's just the first phase. And NO, my dogs won't "jump off and rather disregard" me, if I "don't have food or toy rewards."

The statement sounds as if the handler who uses tangible rewards when instructing the dog in an obedience command then goes on to carry treats around forever; not only that, it also sounds as if the handler uses food or toys as lures or bribes. That's a different thing from rewarding. There may be a place for lures, but it is not the same as rewards.

The whole statement: "While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you more so if you don't have food or toy rewards"..... to me seems to be loaded not only with assumptions about other people's dogs, but also maybe a lack of understanding of a big part of motivational training.

I too do not want to be rude or offensive. I'm trying to point out what I see as a communication problem.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,588 Posts
Jose Alberto Reanto said:
By the way, Selena, know that I'm not trying to be rude in this exchange. That cannot happen since you're more popular and acceptable in this forum than I will ever be.
so because selena is "popular and acceptable" in this forum, it's impossible for you to be rude? one has nothing to do with the other. as you have proven...

keep doing whatever works for you in your little corner of the world. meanwhile, i'll keep trying to position myself to get my hands on one of selena's dogs...
 
Joined
·
303 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Tim Martens said:
so because selena is "popular and acceptable" in this forum, it's impossible for you to be rude? one has nothing to do with the other. as you have proven...
If someone posts that what you do are simply tricks intended for circus dogs, then be grateful if that's exactly what you do. Otherwise, you have every right to clear it up... if you're man enough to stand for what you believe in.

Tim Martens said:
keep doing whatever works for you in your little corner of the world. meanwhile, i'll keep trying to position myself to get my hands on one of selena's dogs...
Go ahead and do what you want. It's none of my business.....

Best regards...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
538 Posts
Connie, ditto on the misconceptions on motivational teaching. I find that tugs and treats are useful NOT in making a dog to obey--you can do that without these tools--but in getting the dog into a certain mindset when working. Whether or not this 'mindset' is useful to you is your call--fast, relaxed, stress-free obedience that may be required of the dog for an extended amount of time, some call it 'flashy', but then it's also the same techniques used for detection dogs...it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the dog will obey you or not without them. They will. As Al likes to put it, it's ingrained in the dog's whole being already.

I find Al's techniques more as an exercise than as a 'principle', and they're very useful in tightening the bond between me and my tug-addicted dog. :twisted: It doesn't mean the technique 'created' the bond or filled in gaps that weren't there...it's just something different and challenging for us. You'd be able to say the same thing with the 'other' method...the Schutzhund heel and the dumbbell retrieve is not as easy as it looks!

Interesting thing is, this dog I asked to climb a ladder...I did not have to take advantage of the puppy following instinct by calling him myself...without a treat or tug in presence with me away in a new environment...and he did it. He needed help, of course, but he did it, and I asked him again and he did it again and again and my voice and approval was enough for him. All the training I have ever done before this prior was what some would consider 'sport' techniques. So what happened? Fact is, I have a bond with my dog, regardless of what training techniques I use with him. I love him and I like to think he respects me enough to do what I ask him to do. In my POV, though, this is a relationship, so I give back to him as much as he gives to me. So I play with him once in a while, I let him chase tugs and toys, and I give him treats, not because he needs or wants them but because I love him enough to show him it's not just always me that matters.

This is a dog who shows extreme aggression in bitework, is civil, will not out even if you try to choke him. I ask him to please out, I don't have to raise my voice, he will out. I put a bandage around him, most dogs will try to tear it out. I ask him please don't mess with it. He looks at me, sighs, and ignores it. For days. This dog will do anything in the world for me I know. So what is it about him that was ruined by playing with tugs or being treated for obeying in the past? Is he constantly looking for a tug or a treat? How about now? I shove a tug at him, he's lying beside me, he's looking at it like I'm crazy. He's not a machine--he's a living, breathing creature who knows when it's time for work or play and has a varied amount of interests in life. I know this, he knows this, and we've never had any trouble.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts
Lyn, thank you for that well-expressed explanation of motivation.

It's odd, but apparently there are people who really believe that teaching an ob command with tangible rewards means that the handler carries food around in the world and is in trouble if he forgets his bag o' treats! :lol: I don't mean this thread, either; I've read many comments about how it doesn't allow a true bond to develop, or destroys a dog's "work ethic." QUOTE: it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the dog will obey you or not without them. END

Exactly!

BTW, I had almost the same ladder experience. The first time, I helped with paw placement going up, and I went down with my arms outside his body ... but he wanted to do it. He did it because I asked him to do it and showed him how. And he did it alone the second and third times. Needless to say, no treats or tugs were involved. :lol:

I'm pretty sure I read here that Bob Scott had satisfying ladder experiences, too.

Of course, now that I read about Al Curbow's ladder experience, I'll probably be a jittery wreck if we try it again. :lol: Still, that dog did it 100% on his own. Not sure if mine could have.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,869 Posts
My GSD did the ladder on his first try at about 16 wks. No pressure. He just wanted to follow me.
I've had a few terriers that you couldn't leave a ladder out. They'd climb it just to see where it went.
When my son was younger, his JRT would climb a verticle ladder (boards nailed to the tree) to get in the tree house. Since he couldn't climb down the verticle ladder, he would just jump out the window. :eek: He did that every day for a couple of years till my son out grew the tree house.
He also climed the rose trellis on the garage if he saw a squirrel up there. Jumped off the garage also.
Any wonder why JRTs are referred to as Mini-Mals?! :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
635 Posts
Please guys and gals...
...don't f&[l< it up.

THERE IS NO NEED TO BE EVEN A TINY BIT JUDGEMENTAL.
WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT OF DISAGREEMENT IF ALL THAT'S HAPPENING IS YOU'RE BEING SOFT ON THE ISSUE AND HARD ON THE PEOPLE. WHY THE HELL IS NO ONE ASKING, "HEY AL...HOW THE HELL DO YOU DO THAT???!!!!"
STOP CRITICIZING!!!!
STOP JUDGING!!!!
AL REANTO SPENDS ENOUGH TIME WITH DOGS AND HAS SHARED ENOUGH...VERY, VERY POLITELY...TO DESERVE TO SUPPORT HIS POINT OF NO TUGS, NO TREATS WITHOUT GETTING QUESTIONED, JUST AS MUCH AS EVERYONE ELSE CAN SUPPORT THE TUGS AND TREATS!!!
WILL THIS BE A UNIDIRECTIONAL BOARD????

THE FOLLOWING IS THE $#!+ THAT SHOULDN'T BE WRITTEN:
circusdogs
While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you
whatever works for you in your little corner of the world.
AL'S VIDEO SHOULD SIMPLY HAVE RECIEVED PRAISE. THAT'S IT.
SOME MIGHT ARGUE THE "OH, DON'T BE SENSITIVE" STUFF, BUT KEEP ONE THING IN MIND: NOT ALL CULTURES ARE THE SAME. WHAT IS A SLIGHT RUB FOR ONE, MIGHT BE VERY SERIOUS TO SOMEONE ELSE
We've lost a BUNCH of good posters already. No need to add to that list.

BTW...OTHER POSTERS HAVE "LADDER" EXPERIENCES...CARE TO SHARE SOME VIDEO????!!!!!

SELENA'S SIGNATURE SPEAKS VOLUMES: "Man is never to old to learn...and a wise man will learn forever!"...OR ARE WE ALL DONE LEARNING.
 
1 - 20 of 77 Posts
Top