EXACTLY. I could feed Fawkes half of a whole raw turkey and he's still want to work for kibble when he's done (not that I'd let him). Great food drive and even more toy drive. When you have the right dog and good training methods, you don't need to do all that stuff (i.e.-withholding food for days at a time, never letting a dog play with another dog for fear it will socialize and get too doggy, never let anyone pet it because it won't protect, crate it for hours and hours with the intention to bring up its drive to work, flanking it on the defense table to bring out defensive drive that isn't there in the first place!). All things suggested by well meaning people, but if your dog has it, it has it... ](*,)
Witholding food for teaching
Ok after the thread titled "drive"got silly today it made me curious how many people have no problems witholding food for a day or so in aid of teaching new things etc.And how many where against it.
81 - 88 of 88 Posts
If you have a dog capable of thinking, doing something to control resources, expericences and the enviorment might be a wise idea.
If you believe in Pavlovs theory, the whole controlling access to people, yourself, and other dogs, you may wanna give some thought to controlling access to those things in a systematic approach. Classical conditioning is a real thing.
The flanking thing on the table...I think most people would agree with you.
I do not think it's all what you see is what you get. You do have some control on how the dog turns out.
If you believe in Pavlovs theory, the whole controlling access to people, yourself, and other dogs, you may wanna give some thought to controlling access to those things in a systematic approach. Classical conditioning is a real thing.
The flanking thing on the table...I think most people would agree with you.
I do not think it's all what you see is what you get. You do have some control on how the dog turns out.
I think everyone has their "type" of dog that they select that is compatible with their training philosophy and lifestyle. However, once you have a different type of dog or maybe you are helping to train, someone else's dog, that's where the creativity and expanded tool box comes into play. In looking at what motivates the dog, sometimes you have to delve a little deeper and get beyond the surface. Training is subjective. As was said, one person's e-collar may be cruel to the next trainer who would rather go the withhold/schedule food/resources route.
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I do NILIF with my own dogs at home. Have for quite a long time now and always recommend it to clients. Not sure where you're going with how controlling access to resources has anything directly to do with classical conditioning? Please clarify. Asking for a 3 minute down stay before the meal is not the same as with holding a resource to build a drive that may never be there much anyways.If you have a dog capable of thinking, doing something to control resources, expericences and the enviorment might be a wise idea.
If you believe in Pavlovs theory, the whole controlling access to people, yourself, and other dogs, you may wanna give some thought to controlling access to those things in a systematic approach. Classical conditioning is a real thing.
The flanking thing on the table...I think most people would agree with you.
I do not think it's all what you see is what you get. You do have some control on how the dog turns out.
Yes, environment is a critically important factor in how a dog turns out. But the people who have to not feed their dogs for several days, socially isolate them, and so on to get them to perform probably don't have very good dogs to begin with. At least in that venue. Or good training methods. They just don't want to be told that. :-$ (not saying I have the best and most high performing dog in the universe cause I don't, but he can still do the work...)
Maren that is exactly what I was trying to say. I did not have to withhold food from my dog to come to the conclusion that OB was not his sport. He could look like an old dog in the OB ring. It wasnt his thing and all the training in the world would not give me a dog that was going to compete with the look you want, but people you should see this boy in agility. He comes alive and there is no need for any food rewards or lures.
Once a week I will give him a quick OB/rally workout and he does it with a smile now so the reward of changing his sport is twofold. I will return him to the OB ring in a couple of months just to see if it works there as well but agility will be his main job.
Once a week I will give him a quick OB/rally workout and he does it with a smile now so the reward of changing his sport is twofold. I will return him to the OB ring in a couple of months just to see if it works there as well but agility will be his main job.
That's a very good example. I'm really excited to hear how well Zak is doing. It sometimes takes a lot of pride swallowing to realize your dog's best sport may not be the one you picked for them. My first Schutzhund dog five years ago was like that. He was a shelter dog and didn't have great drive. He liked to track pretty well, his obedience wasn't much (though that was also likely due to him being my first dog teaching competition obedience), and he just bounced around and barked at the helper. Never got past the long tug, though one of the head trainers suggested we flank him to make him more serious. :roll: Long story short, he's with a new owner now and it turns out he's a natural at herding. Very calm and clear headed with the stock, but with enough drive to not need cheerleading. Unfortunately, his owner got back into barrel racing, so he hasn't done herding in quite a while now, but just goes to show that sometimes people need to choose between the sport they love and the sport their dog does best at. Ideally, they'll be the same sport, but not always.Maren that is exactly what I was trying to say. I did not have to withhold food from my dog to come to the conclusion that OB was not his sport. He could look like an old dog in the OB ring. It wasnt his thing and all the training in the world would not give me a dog that was going to compete with the look you want, but people you should see this boy in agility. He comes alive and there is no need for any food rewards or lures.
Once a week I will give him a quick OB/rally workout and he does it with a smile now so the reward of changing his sport is twofold. I will return him to the OB ring in a couple of months just to see if it works there as well but agility will be his main job.
I do NILIF with my own dogs at home. Have for quite a long time now and always recommend it to clients. Not sure where you're going with how controlling access to resources has anything directly to do with classical conditioning? Please clarify. Asking for a 3 minute down stay before the meal is not the same as with holding a resource to build a drive that may never be there much anyways.
Yes, environment is a critically important factor in how a dog turns out. But the people who have to not feed their dogs for several days, socially isolate them, and so on to get them to perform probably don't have very good dogs to begin with. At least in that venue. Or good training methods. They just don't want to be told that. :-$ (not saying I have the best and most high performing dog in the universe cause I don't, but he can still do the work...)
I think you need to re-read my statement about classical conditioning. Nothing stated about resources.
I was more eluding to classical conditioning in response to seeing me, another dog, a friendly person. Who do you want the dog to be classicaly condition to, in terms of emotional intense interaction? I am assuming it's you.
So socially isolating them from others to classicaly condition certain emotional responses in association with my presence is very valuable.
I guess I get what you saying about the dogs that just do not have it. There are plenty of them. and the simplistic idea that simply making the dog hungry will build a dog that works relaibly, or socially depriving because the dog is excited when you come home and somehow that's drive.... I get that does not make sense.
I use social isolation not to create drive. but in order to create chances to have wonderful, intense, emotional reunions with the dog. I am classicly conditioning the dog, to have an automated biological response to my stimuli.
I also do not let them have much interaction with other dogs outside thier pack. Because I do not want them to classicly condition fun with other dogs. This is what I think you call Doggy....It will happen.
I do not really withhold food. I just use a schedule that keeps them guessing. They will recieve the proper nutrition it's just on a randomized interval, and quanity schedule.
I am not one who believes the only great dogs are the throughobreds. whom have it all the talent in them. there are naturals.
But there are dogs with big hearts and spirits, who can be grown. They are no less valuable to me. In fact the posses a charcterisitic I think A lot of talented dogs lack...the ability to adapt.
So you're breaking down your whole emotional relationship with your dog to Psych 101. Uh okay...I think this happens anyways without our having to do it. Like my dogs start barking when they hear me pull into the driveway. They now have a conditioned response (barking) to the previously neutral but now conditioned stimulus (sound of car pulling in) because of the repetitions of unconditioned stimulus (me coming home). So were they greeting me because we have a good relationship and they are happy to see me or are they greeting me because they are now classically conditioned automatons? Honestly, who cares? I don't believe complex emotions, even from dogs, can be boiled down to only classical conditioning in terms of what Pavlov developed and described. We can (and I do) use operant conditioning for teaching behaviors, but behavior and emotion are not always the same. The classical psych folks would probably say behavior is only empirical (i.e.-only what can be observed). Not all emotions are observable, particularly when we have subjects who cannot tell us what they are feeling.I think you need to re-read my statement about classical conditioning. Nothing stated about resources.
I was more eluding to classical conditioning in response to seeing me, another dog, a friendly person. Who do you want the dog to be classicaly condition to, in terms of emotional intense interaction? I am assuming it's you.
So socially isolating them from others to classicaly condition certain emotional responses in association with my presence is very valuable [....]
I use social isolation not to create drive. but in order to create chances to have wonderful, intense, emotional reunions with the dog. I am classicly conditioning the dog, to have an automated biological response to my stimuli.
I don't let my dogs have much interaction with other dogs outside our pack. Not because I don't want them to be doggy, but because I don't a fight to break out. ;-) In terms of being doggy, the only two places it matters in Schutzhund for a dog to ignore another dog is check in with the judge and honoring the long down while the other dog is working. Both are just a matter of obedience.I also do not let them have much interaction with other dogs outside thier pack. Because I do not want them to classicly condition fun with other dogs. This is what I think you call Doggy....It will happen.
The only problem is when people get a dog that actually is a natural, the ones that are not as talented are usually the ones being left at home while the prodigy gets all the attention...I do not really withhold food. I just use a schedule that keeps them guessing. They will recieve the proper nutrition it's just on a randomized interval, and quanity schedule.
I am not one who believes the only great dogs are the throughobreds. whom have it all the talent in them. there are naturals.
But there are dogs with big hearts and spirits, who can be grown. They are no less valuable to me. In fact the posses a charcterisitic I think A lot of talented dogs lack...the ability to adapt.
81 - 88 of 88 Posts
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