Witholding food for teaching

13253 Views 87 Replies 25 Participants Last post by Maren Bell Jones, Oct 4, 2011

brad robert

Discussion Starter · Oct 2, 2011

Ok after the thread titled "drive"got silly today it made me curious how many people have no problems witholding food for a day or so in aid of teaching new things etc.And how many where against it.

41 - 60 of 88 Posts

Joby Becker

· #41 · Oct 3, 2011

Maren Bell Jones said:
Rick, except there's a big difference in not letting an animal eat for 48-60+ hours every single week as in the original thread

what thread is this??? not the super old SCH tracking thread? I dont even remember that one being 4-5 days every week...

anyhow this thread I do not think is related to that one at all...unless I am missing something...this thread came about due to Brad and Peter arguing about witholding food...recently...

James Downey

· #42 · Oct 3, 2011

Every dog has a satiation threshhold.

diminshing marginal utility states: forevery unit of product consumed the next unit has less of a value in utility.

This can be effected by many things. And this is what we are up against with food.

say the product is food and the unit a big mac. You tell me, There is no way increase your desire for big macs, in face you do not even like them. but that's what we are eating. you eat slow, every bite, the big mac become less and less gratifing. the next day you eat another. it's good again, but the first bite is not as good the last big mac...do this enough days in a row...the big mac, even if your hungry is no long appealing. So knowing that there is other options for food...you eat at burger king.

Take away those other options. you go back to big macs....but the diminshng marginal utility is still in effect. So eventually you just do not eat at all. hoping burger king opens....but it does not...and on top of that, big macs are limited now, so you can only get a half of one on some days, a quarter of one some and some days none at all. Big Macs a few days ago you were so sick of you refused to eat them. Now they are starting to become very important...then one day theres some excess...so you can you can get three. knowing there are no other options for food, and that the supply of big macs maybe limited...your going to eat fast and gorge yourself passed your satiation level. And you said you could not increase your desire for big macs!

See less See more

Shade Whitesel

· #43 · Oct 3, 2011

I think the "stubborness" as described by you, the food in the grass, tracking perhaps? Might be a confusion of something trained... Or expectations of the dog, for instance, if you have conditioned the dog to always play with toys outside and then suddenly you lay a puppy track with lots of food and the dog expects his toy. That has nothing to do with whether the dog has poor food drive or whether you control the resource or not, but rather the poor imprint of tracking.
the orgininal question of withholding food or not. I stop training most things with food the first month so I barely ever withhold. I feed them 2 hours before they track no problem and the experienced one barely gets food on his track anyway.

Maren Bell Jones

· #44 · Oct 3, 2011

Joby Becker said:
what thread is this??? not the super old SCH tracking thread? I dont even remember that one being 4-5 days every week...

anyhow this thread I do not think is related to that one at all...unless I am missing something...this thread came about due to Brad and Peter arguing about witholding food...recently...

Yeah, it's from the same thread:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/drive-21790/#post300351
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/drive-21790/#post300377

So if she's evening meal feeder, that's Wednesday PM to Saturday AM the dog doesn't get to eat, which is 60 hours. If she's a morning meal feeder, that's Wednesday AM to Saturday AM the dog doesn't get to eat, which is 72 hours. She states later she has a 2 year old GSD and a recently acquired Logan Haus pup (I assume Mal from her avatar?). I really hope she's not doing this to the pup soon. That's bad enough to do it to an adult (and a two year old GSD is likely not 100% filled out yet), but a puppy? SMH...

Nicole Stark

· #45 · Oct 3, 2011

That's a bit speculative I think. No one really knows her training schedule or plan. The feeding limitations may be restricted to certain issues she's working on rather than a regular weekly schedule that now somehow involves a LHK puppy too. So, we've got one person here who stated an approach/timeline that many find disagreeable. That being the case, I mean really, why beat a dead horse? Why not target the topic of the OP which really was about whether or not our membership subscribed to that approach? What really is the means to an end here?

People who have been there and done that (me) understand what this is about. I know why it's recommended but also I felt that it was a little like putting spinners on a Pacer. You could do it but why? Does it really add value to the overall picture? No, not really... it's still a Pacer.

brad robert

Discussion Starter · #46 · Oct 3, 2011

Nice info especially from Maren and James.Marens info is interesting as coming from a vet and a trainer its nice to hear her thoughts and James as mentioned earlier has shown also a nice view on it.The way James has set it out is one way or method i was shown a few years ago how to work with a dog and from what i saw here there were some bloody good results.

I agree witholding food for 60 hours thats pushing it there are very easy ways to reward the dog and stop that from happening.

Im not sure weather this one started purely through peter and i disagreeing on things in the last one but a few other people chimed in and it just got me thinking about peoples views here on it.

NILIF is not a bad motto at all not only for dogs.

Kelly Godwin

· #47 · Oct 3, 2011

Maren Bell Jones said:
Yeah, it's from the same thread:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/drive-21790/#post300351
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/drive-21790/#post300377

So if she's evening meal feeder, that's Wednesday PM to Saturday AM the dog doesn't get to eat, which is 60 hours. If she's a morning meal feeder, that's Wednesday AM to Saturday AM the dog doesn't get to eat, which is 72 hours. She states later she has a 2 year old GSD and a recently acquired Logan Haus pup (I assume Mal from her avatar?). I really hope she's not doing this to the pup soon. That's bad enough to do it to an adult (and a two year old GSD is likely not 100% filled out yet), but a puppy? SMH...

This is not weekly, Maren. My point in that thread was to get a dog hungry. With our GSD, it is two days. She eats Wednesday nights, gets kibble treats in obedience training on Thursday and Friday (no big meals), and gets LOTS of treats and even a meal on the tracking field/obedience on Saturday AM. I have always taken you for a level-headed poster, but c'mon now, you are even suggesting a dog starves after two days? I understand you are a veterinarian, my fiance is in her final year of vet school and I can promise you, we would never do anything to put our animals in a harmful situation.

Our pup is very food-motivated and will go through a wall for a piece of kibble, even after a meal. So, please, stop with the assumptions.

My whole point was to get a dog hungry to build food drive. Nothing more, nothing less. Some dogs may be hungry after missing a meal, some may not.

maggie fraser

· #48 · Oct 3, 2011

Kelly Godwin said:
Our pup is very food-motivated and will go through a wall for a piece of kibble, even after a meal. So, please, stop with the assumptions.

My whole point was to get a dog hungry to build food drive. Nothing more, nothing less. Some dogs may be hungry after missing a meal, some may not.

So why on earth are you starving the dog on a weekly basis if she has such high food drive

.

You must be a real top of the tree trainer prepping for some big deal. Or I am really missing something here.

Kelly Godwin

· #49 · Oct 3, 2011

maggie fraser said:
So why on earth are you starving the dog on a weekly basis if she has such high food drive .

You must be a real top of the tree trainer prepping for some big deal. Or I am really missing something here.

You are missing something here, you are not reading my post carefully. I said our pup, which is our Logan Haus mal. He has very high food drive.

Kelly Godwin

· #50 · Oct 3, 2011

Kelly Godwin said:
This is not weekly, Maren. My point in that thread was to get a dog hungry. With our GSD, it is two days. She eats Wednesday nights, gets kibble treats in obedience training on Thursday and Friday (no big meals), and gets LOTS of treats and even a meal on the tracking field/obedience on Saturday AM. I have always taken you for a level-headed poster, but c'mon now, you are even suggesting a dog starves after two days? I understand you are a veterinarian, my fiance is in her final year of vet school and I can promise you, we would never do anything to put our animals in a harmful situation.

Our pup is very food-motivated and will go through a wall for a piece of kibble, even after a meal. So, please, stop with the assumptions.

My whole point was to get a dog hungry to build food drive. Nothing more, nothing less. Some dogs may be hungry after missing a meal, some may not.

And let me expand on this by correcting my post in the previous thread. I said Wednesday to Saturday. What I meant by that is she does not get a meal between those days. She has her normal meal Wednesday night then another normal meal Saturday morning.

Thursday and Friday, she gets enough reward kibble that she is probably getting half a meal on those days. Saturday morning, she gets more than a normal meal.

Martine Loots

· #51 · Oct 3, 2011

Many people who feed raw don't feed their dogs 2 days prior to a training or a trial but the meal they get before that is a huge one.
There is a theory that says it would improve their working power (like wild animals that are at top capacity when hungry and going for the hunt).

Never tried it since we train at least 3 times a week. If I would then keeping dogs would become very cheap hehe

vicki dickey

· #52 · Oct 3, 2011

Dont get bent out of shape of course I did not call the Humane Society because these are well cared for dogs=normally. I do not think it necessary or right to withhold food for 3 days so they will hunt better. People think the cat will be a better mouser if they dont feed them and it is just not true. And talk about cats we had to collect all the club cats in the barn and lock them up or those crazed with hunger bassetts might have killed one.
I always thought food made the brain work better-better concentration, etc. What about energy for the dog? Does this deprive them also of good sleep if they are hungry? A person deprived of food for 3 days wouldnt function as well so why would a dog?
I dont know if I would call this "training".

Kadi Thingvall

· #53 · Oct 3, 2011

I feed my dogs their main meal in the late evening, and they get a very small snack in the mornings, a strip of duck breast jerky, couple dog biscuits, etc. I usually train either in the morning/afternoon (weekends) or afternoon/early evening after work (during the week). So it's normal my dogs have gone somewhere between 12 and 20 hours since their last meal when we are training.

Beyond that, I wouldn't withold food to build food drive. If I was tracking early in the morning I might feed the dog earlier in the day the day before, but that's about it. It's not really an ethical thing, I do think NO food at all for 2-3 days to build food drive is an issue, but some food during that time period in the form of training rewards as was later described seems fine to me. It's just a "dog choice", if I had to routinely withold food for a day or two to build enough drive for training, I'd either change my training methods, or get a different dog.

Kelly Godwin

· #54 · Oct 3, 2011

Kadi Thingvall said:
I feed my dogs their main meal in the late evening, and they get a very small snack in the mornings, a strip of duck breast jerky, couple dog biscuits, etc. I usually train either in the morning/afternoon (weekends) or afternoon/early evening after work (during the week). So it's normal my dogs have gone somewhere between 12 and 20 hours since their last meal when we are training.

Beyond that, I wouldn't withold food to build food drive. If I was tracking early in the morning I might feed the dog earlier in the day the day before, but that's about it. It's not really an ethical thing, I do think NO food at all for 2-3 days to build food drive is an issue, but some food during that time period in the form of training rewards as was later described seems fine to me. It's just a "dog choice", if I had to routinely withold food for a day or two to build enough drive for training, I'd either change my training methods, or get a different dog.

I agree with your post completely. Further, I should have been more clear in the previous thread and stated that our GSD does get what amounts to half a meal via rewards on the two days she does not get a full meal. That may have saved a lot of the confusion.

Terrasita Cuffie

· #55 · Oct 3, 2011

James Downey said:
not following you here Maren... I do not get how the dog is confused about eating food? I am simply talking about the dogs desire for food. Not the actual creation of behavior. We can agree, that to make behavior you have to have a reward valuble enough to get the dog work for it. I am simply talking about increasing the value of the food. I also think with food you can make drive.

An extreme example is a dog that is truley starving and you give it a bowl of food, then immediatly try to take it away...do you think the dog will just allow you take it? and let's say they did, and every day you did this, the dog would start to at the very least would try to eat faster. Then you randomize feeding schedule and amounts offered. The dog would see the food as a limited resource and try to gain access to as much of it as it could.

Another example is. Lets say you feed one dog everyday and not the other...but thier is only enough food to sustain life for one dog. Do you think eventually they would start to fight for it?

I think there is connection between food and prey drive; at least for my one dog. She amped over food [in her bowl] and over flighty livestock. I needed more control in that state of mind and it dawned on me she only came close to that when she went over the top at feed time. So looking resources and nothing in life is free and why we do it, I decided to finally deal with it on that level. The result was much better control of the reactivity and a dog that has essentially packed up. I don't like my low drive sensitive dog food satiated before I work him. He has waayyyy more drive and ability to handle pressure when not food satiated and I get more benefit out of the marker training. For him it does seem to be drive building with the two-fold system. I didn't vote because I didn't see withholding food for a day; although I don't think that's detrimental to any dog. Nor do I think its a matter of poor training techniques. Most of the time when you go to this is sorta last resort. I had been thinking about it for a couple of years with Khira. With me traveling at the time it was impossible to do it over several days; and therefore I thought ineffective. On training days, I make a point of feeding her right after my training sessions to connect the two. I seem to have accomplished what I needed so there are freebie dinners other days.

T

See less See more

Joby Becker

· #56 · Oct 3, 2011

vicki dickey said:
Dont get bent out of shape of course I did not call the Humane Society because these are well cared for dogs=normally. I do not think it necessary or right to withhold food for 3 days so they will hunt better. People think the cat will be a better mouser if they dont feed them and it is just not true. And talk about cats we had to collect all the club cats in the barn and lock them up or those crazed with hunger bassetts might have killed one.
I always thought food made the brain work better-better concentration, etc. What about energy for the dog? Does this deprive them also of good sleep if they are hungry? A person deprived of food for 3 days wouldnt function as well so why would a dog?
I dont know if I would call this "training".

The key sentences are these two..

It does not matter what YOU think. They have their reasons why they do what they do, and it must make some kind of difference, or they would not do it most likely..the not feeding is NOT the training, I agree with you there...but those are their dogs and they can do what they want with them, regardless of what you or me or anyone else thinks is "right".

I had a lady policewoman stop a protection training group, in a fenced in city parking lot...because somebody called and said we were abusing dogs. I saw the police car pull up in the alley and watch us train for a few minutes before getting out of the car...There was a dog on a tie out and was being worked for targeting. The dog was then sent on a longish send and was driven with a padded stick, recieving 3 stick "hits" safely on his back...dog was then outed and recalled...

She got out...stopped the whole thing, talked to me and finally admitted what we were doing did not constitute any kind of abuse...but wanted to make sure that she gave a big speech to everyone there how wrong it was to FORCE a dog to bite, and hit them with things to make them meaner...(neither of which were being done) and went on to tell everyone there that any type of training for protection is pointless, that the dogs will protect their owners out of love for them...I told her my thoughts on that...invited her to prove that with her own dogs, which she declined because she did not want her dogs to end up being mean LOL...and we went back to training...

I would think not feeding a cat would make him a better mouser, he would be actively hunting for his food, not laying around, occasionally trying to play with something fun to maim or kill...

I have no opinion on the whole fasting of hunting dogs thing...but I will say that I have talked to many people who think it is cruel that I have a pinch collar on my dog, or that I use an e-collar....your comments remind me of those people sort of..not saying you are like that though...

I had one lady threaten to call the cops once because I corrected a dog in public harshly for unwarranted aggression against an innocent person walking by..., and the dog tried to attack me, and I was forced to choke it out, it woke up and came back again, so I choke slammed the dog by its collar and got on top of it...until it was over, and the dog submitted...got up and continued on....

Granted that was a little extreme in public, because 99% of people would see DOG ABUSE....but it was necessary to do in my mind..regardless of what anyone else thought..

I told he she was welcome to try to take the dog home with her if she would like, so she could show it the love it deserved...she declined, and said if I loved the dog more, it would not try to bite me,,,LOL, and said if I wasn't so mean to the dog, it would be nicer to people LOL....

funny thing was I never had any more real problems with the dog after that...no unwarranted aggression in public, and the dog never came at me again...but I would bet it would have bitten that lady if she took it home and showed it the LOVE she thought it was lacking..

See less See more

Marta Wajngarten

· #57 · Oct 3, 2011

Joby Becker said:
...but I would bet it would have bitten that lady if she took it home and showed it the LOVE she thought it was lacking..

I some times wish one of those people did end up with one of those dogs, but the "love is the answer" people would likely deem your dog sick in the head after being bitten a few times and have it put down before they even for a second doubted themselves and their methods.

vicki dickey

· #58 · Oct 3, 2011

. Domestic cats, even when well-fed, still retain their instinctual drive to hunt.

Read more: Why Do Cats Chase Mice? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4570378_why-do-cats-chase-mice.html#ixzz1ZkU8Sq00
One common mistake people make is that they think if they starve their cat it will be a better hunter. This is completely incorrect. A well fed cat will hunt for fun, and will catch more mice than one who is only hunting for need.

The natural instinct that makes an aussie herd, or a pointer point or a retriever bring in the bird makes a cat hunt. I wonder if a well fed hunting dog will hunt out a rabbit better?
Some cats are better hunters than others. Some dogs are better protection dogs than others or better at herding than others. Train all you want you cannot make a superior dog out of a dog that is not right for the job. And I dont think it will matter how many days you starve it to train it. If the dog is not right for that job find it a different job and find a dog with the mentality to do the job you are asking of it. Your joib of training will be easier and in the end both dog and trainer will be happier.
I dont know about the "love" thing. I dont think you can love a dog into doing anything.
If you have to starve your dog to train it I am not too sure what that says about you the trainer. I am not talking about the people who might feed a bit less knowing they will make it up in a training session. I mean the people who starve their dogs for days to accomplish something. If I had to starve my dog before he would work for me or would give me his attention I really think I would have to reexamine my methods of training.
I have trained and worked with many breeds of dogs, horses and other types of animals and never had to resort to such a thing. I just have to shake my head on this one.

See less See more

maggie fraser

· #59 · Oct 3, 2011

Well, if we are talking about cats....

I know literally nothing on the theory of cats. I have a feral cat, and when I offer her food, she eats a little and then will go catch a mouse or shrew which she will deposit for me. I know it is for me, because she comes to call me to come and view her gift

.

This cat dropped more than six mice/shrews in under one hour on my door mat (an occasion I was counting),....each time she came to collect me to view. I feed cat...cat catches mouse!

There could be some truth in your theory Vickey

.

BTW, lots of bloviating going on in this thread....just sayin

Joby Becker

· #60 · Oct 3, 2011

maggie fraser said:
Well, if we are talking about cats....

I know literally nothing on the theory of cats. I have a feral cat, and when I offer her food, she eats a little and then will go catch a mouse or shrew which she will deposit for me. I know it is for me, because she comes to call me to come and view her gift .

This cat dropped more than six mice/shrews in under one hour on my door mat (an occasion I was counting),....each time she came to collect me to view. I feed cat...cat catches mouse!

There could be some truth in your theory Vickey .

BTW, lots of bloviating going on in this thread....just sayin

Bloviation is a skill

41 - 60 of 88 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.