[Patrick Murray]

This was brought up in another thread here and I think it's a good topic to discuss. My feeling is everyone's situation is different so what might be right for one might be perfect for another. For example, a home that has many guests might need a dog that is accepting of their presence and of being petted by them. On the other hand, someone living alone in a tough neighborhood might be better off with an anti-social dog that doesn't get petted by anyone.

How do you feel about this? What are pros and cons of both? Thanks.

 

[Kristina Senter]

I agree, its all situational and personal preference. Most sociability levels have a place and it will just depend. Most social problems are actually confidence issues, but thats not necessarily a bad thing.

Armin Winkler will tell you that ALL \"aggression\" is fearful. Realizing that drive and aggression are two different things, I can see where he is coming from. Its an interesting thought.

I personally prefer a dog that is confident enough to be approached and touched resonably by a total stranger without any aggression whatsoever. A polite to indifferent greeting will allow for a non-threatening stranger to come and go without being \"tense\" about a hawk-eyed dog just waiting to engage, not to mention a barking, snarling PCP-biter. Their reaction to an overly aggressive dog will only worsen a initially passive situation. On the flip side, I totally understand the need for a property protection dog that makes the assumption that if you're in reach you're in the wrong. I think the owner needs to consider the dangers and liability of a dog like this however.

-Kristina

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Quote:Armin Winkler will tell you that ALL \"aggression\" is fearful. Realizing that drive and aggression are two different things, I can see where he is coming from. Its an interesting thought.

Aggro dogs for the most part, are the first ones to quit. Fear is behind aggression, I will never believe otherwise. I hear people talk about the \"prey\" monsters in ring, I will take that for myself anyday over the aggro dogs. Yes, many of these dogs do bite really hard, but the stress of their fear is what causes them to do this. Ring points this out with the esquive. By taking away the dogs initial entry, and then threatening, it takes the dog out of prey drive. Dogs with limited prey, and lower defensive thresholds can be run.

I am not talking about a balanced dog, but one with greater tendancies towards defense. I have seen many dogs that can fake a new person out, they show defense in the face (they were taught) but are not in defense.

IF, I lost my mind, and lived in an area where I seriously needed a PP dog, I would not really deal with the petting. The dog I would choose would be rather sharp, and bite.

I do not have any need for this, so all my dogs can be petted, as long as you don't mind the Mal jumping up. The rest don't do this, they just enjoy getting rubbed. THe Mal enjoys it a bit too much, when you try to quit......well he makes sure you don't. He is such a dick. (yes I could fix this, but who cares? :twisted: )



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[Kristina Senter]

Exactly. All that show- the dogs lunging, hackling, snarling and spitting, is nothing but a front to DETER you from approach, which many people are fooled by (even those that should know better).
My dog gets so excited at the thought of biting that he CAN'T bark sometimes, just quivers and whines in anticipation. I would always prefer a dog that starts in prey every time. Defense should only come out when a \"prey\" persuit is met with aggression, IMO, if that makes any sense?

 

[Greg Long]

With an adult dog i usually only let well behaved children pet my dog.Noone else that he doesnt know.

Greg

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

I used to be of the mind that nobody should pet your dog. But I've since seen too many very very nice hard hitting intense dogs who will bite the F outta the decoy in defense, totally wanna slaughter the poor decoy (on occasion that's been me LOL), then wanna love on the guy he/she's just been biting seconds later. So if a dog with such intensity can also be social, then why not? I used to feel that sociability would take away from biting intensity, but I have since learnt that if the training is right then it doesn't make a difference. Now -- one thing I would doubt with some social dogs is that if someone is petting the dog n loving on em, n then the dog is told to attack them, I have doubts that the dog really would suddenly turn on the guy who's being so nice to them.... but what are the chances you let someone pet your dog then suddenly need to be bitten? Very low I would imagine.

It's been said by some people that they like dogs who want to litterally \"eat\" people... good for them, but if they consider it a PPD and it's so unstable that you can't walk thru a crowd for an hour and the dog wants to bite everyone that looks at the dog funny, then maybe that dog isn't the kinda PPD that many people would like.... i.e. a dog that can protect you no matter where you take them, regardless of who's there, what they're doing and how they look at your dog. If you want a dog who'll defend your property no matter what and doesn't ever have to be in a crowded public area then no problem, get the dog that eats people :lol:

I have no idea what my lil girl is gonna be like, but I believe that a dog genetically has a \"line\"... and the way you raise and socialize the dog will help go to the left or right of that line -- but that line is the dogs pre-programming, if they're all the way on the aggressive side, then the \"less aggressive\" side of that line still falls into the aggressive zone... make sense?

 

[Kristina Senter]

Having the dog that goes from bitework to petting and will easily bite the person petting them on command alone is only a matter of training. We do it within almost every session.

I think theres actually a high possability that someone that wanted to hurt you would first ask to pet you'r dog to see if the dog is aggressive. Being that I'm in a very populated area, I'm asked constantly. So, we train that just because the person is nice one second, they won't necessarily be the next. I place a lot of emphasis on passive bites, though. I've been in a situation where I have been approached while on patrol by someone calmly and patiently talking about how he was going to \"stick the knife that was in his pocket into my throat\". The dog in cases like that has no reason to know that the person is threatening me and if sent, it would be on a motionless, passive person that has presented no threat. Very confusing to a dog who has not been trained for such instances, especially an appropriately social dog.

It may sound wrong, but I don't want my dog to think unless I clearly cannot think for him. If I'm struck is the only reason he should bite. Otherwise, whether a person is passive, aggressive or asleep, I want him to bite him if I tell him to and only if I tell him to.

-Kristina

 

[Howard Gaines III]

I don't want anyone petting my dog. If my dog needs or wants attention, it comes from the pack leader...me. To assume that everyone is a "friend" is a big mistake. It's like lending a stranger your loaded handgun. Would anyone do that? I don't think so. I have had folks say that they wanted a social PPD. Well, to my way of thinking that's the same as saying you want a handgun to protect yourself, but you don't want the ammo that goes in it...ERH!

Scenario: What if your "social" PPD is with you and someone punches you in the throat and you can't talk, will your dog "know" to protect you? Or will it assume that this is horseplay and no problem is out there? On command and through ANY physical contact my dogs work, and the same with our training group. If you can't talk, how can you send a command?

Nope, no social PPDs for me.

 

[Jerry Lyda]

I don't allow horseplay when I have my dog.

Kristina trains in APPDA and as well as other things, but this is how and why we train our dogs as we do. Social PPD is the best way.

 

[Lyn Chen]

Aren't there dogs that naturally doesn't want to get petted, and not necessarily the growly defensive barking kind?

 

[Jerry Lyda]

Lyn, I would call that type dog a shy dog. He would bite if you had him in a corner, but that same dog may just wet himself.

 

[Bob Scott]

Lyn, to add to Jerry's post, a dog that is indifferent to people is not the same as a dog that naturally doesn't want to get petted.

 

[Hoyt Yang]

In training personal protection dogs, it is always about maintaining a fine balance. I have owned dogs (GSDs and Mals) which have ranged from having very high thresholds for aggression, to others that would alert aggresively at the slightest noise, movement, or anything 'barely' percieved as a threat. This type of dog was always 'looking for a fight,' or any reason to engage. This was also the type of dog that I welcomed strangers to pet and be friendly with, as long as the setting was appropriate. (This was obviously done with careful supervision and rehearsed scenarios). As a personal protection dog, I wanted dogs that are more on the civil side to be reasonably accepting of people-- there was no need to teach this type of dog to be aggressive as it was in their nature. On the other end of the spectrum, the PPD that had a high threshold for aggression, I discouraged even friends and family to pet or show any signs of affection. They were instructed to simply ignore the dog. The answer lies in the type of of PP dog and its temperament..

 

[Howard Gaines III]

I would encourage any low-life criminal to pet mine. All smiles when they do. They call them PPDs for a reason. They call them pets for a reason. Don't mix business with pleasure.

 

[Hoyt Yang]

I agree Howard, but what I've gathered in the past is that an overly aggressive dog can't be trusted to be around people... which limits its ability to be a protection dog in the first place. A PPD in the crate or kennel is well.. useless. And unfortunately, we've all had people not too smart walk up and 'pet' our dogs without permission...

 

[Al Curbow]

Jerry,
you think a dog that doesn't like be petted by strangers is a weak dog?

 

[Jerry Lyda]

Depends, what are you calling weak?

 

[Al Curbow]

Jerry,
Lyn said "Aren't there dogs that naturally doesn't want to get petted, and not necessarily the growly defensive barking kind?"

You replied, "Lyn, I would call that type dog a shy dog. He would bite if you had him in a corner, but that same dog may just wet himself."

I'm just curious to how a "not necessarily the growly defensive barking kind" becomes a "shy" dog and a fear biter because it doesn't like being petted by strangers.
AL

 

[Tim Martens]

Jerry,
Lyn said "Aren't there dogs that naturally doesn't want to get petted, and not necessarily the growly defensive barking kind?"

You replied, "Lyn, I would call that type dog a shy dog. He would bite if you had him in a corner, but that same dog may just wet himself."

I'm just curious to how a "not necessarily the growly defensive barking kind" becomes a "shy" dog and a fear biter because it doesn't like being petted by strangers.
AL

we may be splitting hairs here, but i agree with jerry. the aloof dog who is accepting of petting is one thing. the dog that just doesn't like it is another. the latter i would consider a genetic defect that, as hoyt said, is useless as a ppd...

 

[Bob Scott]

Posted by Tim:
"we may be splitting hairs here, but i agree with jerry. the aloof dog who is accepting of petting is one thing. the dog that just doesn't like it is another. the latter i would consider a genetic defect that, as hoyt said, is useless as a ppd..."

This was my though about the "indifferent" dog compaired to the dog that doesn't like it.