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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a large breed, late maturing bitch.
She is 1 year.
Up until now we've been doing really well with obed; even to the point of off-lead in non-distraction situations.
She would down, sit - from about 5-15 feet away, very attentive heel on and off lead and recall from about 1/8 mile great! She was so good I took off the prong and went to a fur saver (long hair).

Now she has suffered a serious brain fart; I'm thinking it's teenager-hood, since she wasn't quite this obstinate even when she was coming into season (at about 9 mos.) She's now back on the prong.

Now I'm getting bitched at for corrections - half eyes, lifted lip and yes I'll admit I was unfair when she first started bitching at me; but now I've softened up a bit; she has elevated her response to what she thinks is unfair (and it's not; I truly have reevaluated when/what for I'm correcting).

She also has a serious case of NMHOB - she whines and wants everyone to come and pet her; she's obno about it; if they stand just off from her; she actually reaches out with her forelegs and pulls them towards her (she's big about 100 lbs, I need her to knock it off). She also desperately to the point of major annoyance (to me anyway) wants to play with EVERY dog we see.

My trainer has advised lots of long line Kohler type set ups with very little conscious correction on my part; more along the line of; oh I turned left and your shoulder was in the way; sorry I checked you; and oh you weren't paying attention and I accidently turned and ran in the opposite direction.
She actually responds quite well to this type of work; she will do quite a pretty and focussed fuss for a long walk (about 30 minutes) after a few minutes of this at the beginning.
She has however become very line savvy; I'm buying some smaller line at the store today hoping it will set her up more; but does anyone have any other suggestions? Specific situational setups are requested.

We will consider an e-collar; but she truly is still a puppy and don't want to mess up her head; she may need that in time.
 

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I am pretty new to dog training, but IMO asking a 1 yr old (or really any age) dog to heel perfectly for 30 minutes is asking alot. I try to keep my training sessions really short. As my dog progresses they get longer.

She is still really young and has alot of puppy left in her. Are you training her for sport?

I think there is a time and place for distractions, but make sure that she knows what you are asking of her before you put her in that situation. Dont set up for failure.

Like I said, Im pretty new to all of this myself, so take it for what its worth.

Good Luck :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Amanda

that's what what so neat before; she loves to heel like that; big grin on her face; looking up; keeping an eye on you; not schutzhund perfect; but a decent UCD score. I wouldn't "ask" per se; but after a lot of walks where I focussed on her position (no collar corrections; but in about and about turns) she thinks its fun; and she still does. She will jump turn for an inabout turn and look you in the eye while doing it. You can slow to a crawl and she will slow, break into a run and she stays exactly with you, shuffle around and she shuffles too. Pretty neat for a big dog.

She knows sit, down, stay, leave it, out; etc.; perhaps I need to sit back now and enjoy my doggers and let her grow. And while I'm waiting for her to grow up; keep her on a long line since her off-leash skills are lacking right now.

Her breeding is a defensive guard, so eventually she will be tested by an experienced decoy who is familiar with her breed to determine breed appropriate response (and so I can see what I have; and what I need to keep an eye on.)

She will never be a "sport" dog; but she will be in UKC Obedience competition.
It is very funny though; she will attend class with my trainer; and does all commands well in a group situation; so maybe she's just trying to show her independence in real world situations; while in a ring she will be fine.

Any other suggestions are also welcome.
 

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Sounds like she might be stressed since she is a late maturing dog. You might want to ease up on the ob (shorter training sessions). Also, I don't know how you work ob, but I always have a ball on a rope or a jute roll & only fuss a short bit then give a bite & play then out & repeat. At one year I don't want anything negative with ob or tracking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks Susan

I think I will do just that; make stuff shorter and more fun; I think that's why she's being snippy with me.

I'm also hoping that the more fun stuff we do; the more I can ignore the jerky stuff and the less corrections overall.
 

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Quote; "She was so good I took off the prong and went to a fur saver".

Sounds to me like the dog is collar wise.

She started acting up with the fursaver and now she's back on the prong.

At one yrs old, I don't think the dog was "so good" to take off the prong. I think she was just "under control" with the prong. That has nothing to do with being trained.

When you took it off, you taught her she could resist control without the corrections she got from the prong.

I'm very much for totally motivational training, but regardless of methods, it's all about climbing the training ladder one step at a time.

Go back to the start and have fun with her. She's still a puppy.

I also think 30 mins of heeling is to much for ANY level of training, much less a 1yr old youngster. I prefer 3-4 mins, 3-4-5 times a day.
A 30 min training session even covering most of what the dog knows is to long.

BTW, what is her breed?
 

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Bob Scott said:
..... I prefer 3-4 mins, 3-4-5 times a day. ... A 30 min training session even covering most of what the dog knows is to long.....
Ditto.

Short and sweet, no one getting frustrated, and leave 'em wanting more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hey Bob

What would you suggest?

I truly don't ask for a heel now when we walk; that's where she places her self; and since she's back on the prong I think; when I give her her release word she won't leave position.

Should I do a few minutes of focussed work (like you said 3-4) and then reattach the line to her fur saver? She might be more prone to leaving heel position at that point?

BTW she's not unhappy about being beside me; no stress; just keeps the position very well.

Or after a couple rounds of obed, should I just free her and ignore her?

I think she's a bit confused since we were spending most of our time walking off lead and now she's got a constant line on. It's been 3 days since she's been on the long line; maybe just giving it more time for her to figure out this is the new status quo?

And BTW she's a Central Asian Shepherd.
 

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I like gradually building, but then again, I am doing a specific sport. So eventually I am going to need to have control of the dog for 45 minutes or more at the ring three level.

Whatever you are doing, my guess would be work toward that goal. I do not believe in staying at short periods all the time, but getting correct work is important. So you need to find your balance for what it is you are trying to accomplish.

I thought these dogs needed no training and didn't like to train :wink: :lol:



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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Had fun at quarry today;

and all dogs need training; even the mythical ones :roll:

Honestly, I post here because I am serious about trying to make my dog the best she can be; I choose not to get into performance discussions with non-performance people.

Anyway; went to quarry today for hour walkabout; had a very light 30 ft. long line on Kimmy; she still stays at heel without asking; but we got to playing and having fast Malinois type downs; as opposed to mastiffy slow slouches; she likes to play with a ball tug toy and likes to wrestle a bit, so we'd walk, run, run on the ice, down, sit, stand (which was nice since I've been using hand signals for down/sit/stand-and was trying to get away from the use of handgestures + voice) ta da; down sit stand - no change in position from me, no hand gestures. Yay! :lol:

Anyway after seeing her reaction today I think I was making it too serious for her; she has been avoiding eye contact with me for obedience stuff in the house; today in the open with some play interspersed she was really on; very fired up and WITH me; partners with me, not just some dog I was making do things, it was a nice feeling.

I think I know where I'm going with her, I'm visiting my trainer this week for some stuff to work on; but she had even mentioned to me about using the toy to get some faster sits and downs; the stand has been a bonus.

Thanks guys for all your well-proposed ideas.

8)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
This is a performance board

thus I ask questions from people with performance/working backgrounds; as opposed to some boards that Jeff O and I frequent (purely coincidentally) where the notion that a Central Asian Shepherd might like training and might like to be trained is viewed as blasphemy because dogs of the Ovcharka type do not NEED training; so say plenty of breed proponents (fortunately not my girl's breeder; but other's out there). Apparently from some of these people my dog type of breed is a mythical being that never needs training and protects based on instinct alone and can read your thoughts psychically and respond as needed; hrrmmm.:wink:

Just so that my last post is not construed incorrectly; I really like this board and it's members. 8)
 

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Re: This is a performance board

Jennifer Sider said:
"This is a performance board"

thus I ask questions from people with performance/working backgrounds; as opposed to some boards that Jeff O and I frequent (purely coincidentally) where the notion that a Central Asian Shepherd might like training and might like to be trained is viewed as blasphemy.... Just so that my last post is not construed incorrectly; I really like this board and it's members. 8)
That's was what I thought you meant, but some people refer to show dogs as performance dogs.......... so I was just checking. :lol:
 

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Jennifer, no problem here either.
We have a Presa breeder at our club that goes through the same thing with her "people". "you've got a guard breed. Let it's natural instincts do their job". DUH!
You've got a serious dog (breed) on your hands. Nothing wrong with wanting to stay in contol.
Your seeing how well "fun" training is working now. That doesn't mean a lack of leadership. That's what your dog needs. That's not about heavy correction or physical control.
As Jeff commented, we train for distance in competition, but that's not how to start with a young dog. Short, fun sessions. As they become solid, you add more time/distraction, and start putting the different exercises together.
Again! NO reason for 30 mins of focus type heeling.
 

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Re: This is a performance board

Jennifer Sider said:
thus I ask questions from people with performance/working backgrounds; as opposed to some boards that Jeff O and I frequent (purely coincidentally) where the notion that a Central Asian Shepherd might like training and might like to be trained is viewed as blasphemy because dogs of the Ovcharka type do not NEED training; so say plenty of breed proponents (fortunately not my girl's breeder; but other's out there). Apparently from some of these people my dog type of breed is a mythical being that never needs training and protects based on instinct alone and can read your thoughts psychically and respond as needed; hrrmmm.:wink:

Just so that my last post is not construed incorrectly; I really like this board and it's members. 8)
The general advice is that dogs of these breeds with CORRECT TEMPERAMENT do not need specific training in order to GUARD THEIR TERRITORY. Everyone agrees that the dogs need to have some basic obedience, what I term to be house manners, and to be kept under control. What you have told the forum here may be your interpretation about the advice given in Ovcharkas, but in fact does not accurately reflect what is in fact advised. If you would like to dispute me on this point, I will direct you to the many many Ovcharka websites and even to my published book on Caucasians that advocate the need for basic obedience for the Ovcharka breeds.

Later this week, will be posted an article by Galina Kirkitskaya, president of the Russian Caucasian Ovcharka club, and her advice on the type and amount of training these dogs should receive for successful ownership in her very very experienced opinion.

Those experienced in ovcharka breeds, feel that the dogs of correct temperament pay close attention to their owners, read nonverbal cues and read the environment, and that they exhibit excellent judgment It is these temperament traits that distinguish the Ovcharkas, have insured their partnership with mankind for 2000 years, virtually unchanged as breeds during this time. Please don't mock it.

Stacey Kubyn
 

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Re: This is a performance board

Jennifer Sider said:
thus I ask questions from people with performance/working backgrounds; as opposed to some boards that Jeff O and I frequent (purely coincidentally) where the notion that a Central Asian Shepherd might like training and might like to be trained is viewed as blasphemy because dogs of the Ovcharka type do not NEED training; so say plenty of breed proponents (fortunately not my girl's breeder; but other's out there). Apparently from some of these people my dog type of breed is a mythical being that never needs training and protects based on instinct alone and can read your thoughts psychically and respond as needed; hrrmmm.:wink:

Just so that my last post is not construed incorrectly; I really like this board and it's members. 8)
could be totally talking out my a** here, but here goes.

I think there are a few breeds that will "naturally protect" and are very in tune with their "masters" thinking. I don’t know a whole lot about your breed, so I can’t really comment there, but I know that my breed (dobermans) are "natural" protectors. If they have the correct temperament for the breed, they should never need any training to protect. It should be instinct to them.

The only problem is that it is hard to say whether they have correct temperament or not based on just "living day to day" with them. If I were ever REALLY threatened, I THINK my dogs would be there. But I have never been REALLY threatened before.......so I may never know.

IMO training in obedience and sport...just deepens your bond, and understanding with your dog. It makes them MORE apt to read your emotions, and visual/non visual cues that you may be under stress, which I don’t know about your breed.....but mine reacts to it. I don’t care what breed you have, I think that some sort of (at very least) basic foundation training makes them much easier to live with, and much better pets/companions.

Just my .02
 

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Quote: Those experienced in ovcharka breeds, feel that the dogs of correct temperament pay close attention to their owners, read nonverbal cues and read the environment, and that they exhibit excellent judgment It is these temperament traits that distinguish the Ovcharkas, have insured their partnership with mankind for 2000 years, virtually unchanged as breeds during this time. Please don't mock it.

You have to remember that we are not customers here. mythological bull$h6t isn't gonna cut it. Everyone here is a trainer of some level.

So leave this crap for the other board. The breed has changed so that is crap, all dogs understand nonverbal cues so that is crap, all dogs read the environment, so that is crap.

Don't try to bring it here, I was nice on the other board. Read and listen, don't start spouting off.



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Re: This is a performance board

[quote="Amanda Laynecould be totally talking out my a** here, but here goes.

I think there are a few breeds that will "naturally protect" and are very in tune with their "masters" thinking. I don’t know a whole lot about your breed, so I can’t really comment there, but I know that my breed (dobermans) are "natural" protectors. If they have the correct temperament for the breed, they should never need any training to protect. It should be instinct to them.

[/quote]

Hi Amanda,

Interesting what you replied. When I wrote about Ovcharkas I thought about Dobermanns too, some of that I've known, and how in tune they are seem to their owner. Sorta like 5 year old kids. Do you have a website?

Regards,
 

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Whether you agree or not, or find them to be fantastic, these beliefs and statements are part of the breed history and breed lore. To some extent, a dog is a dog is a dog. However, to understand each breed's idiosyncracies, or alleged ones, and taking them into account may help one devise the most effective training program.

While all dogs may read nonverbal cues and read the environment, livestock guardian dog breeds were bred specifically to read the environment and changes in the environment. So while Border Collies are eyeing and moving the sheep, the LGDs (livestock guardian dogs) are laying quietly, observing and tuning in.

That be it as it may, the recommendation for training LGDs is multiple very short sessions, and low number of reps, making it fun but low key. They generally understand the commands really fast, many reps sours the session and they start to balk. Maybe it is the same for all dogs, but in my small experience, I've noticed that Rotts and Shepherds react differently to to basic obedience training than LGDs.

Always refreshing to read your posts Jeff.

Best regards.


Jeff Oehlsen said:
Quote: Those experienced in ovcharka breeds, feel that the dogs of correct temperament pay close attention to their owners, read nonverbal cues and read the environment, and that they exhibit excellent judgment It is these temperament traits that distinguish the Ovcharkas, have insured their partnership with mankind for 2000 years, virtually unchanged as breeds during this time. Please don't mock it.

You have to remember that we are not customers here. mythological bull$h6t isn't gonna cut it. Everyone here is a trainer of some level.

So leave this crap for the other board. The breed has changed so that is crap, all dogs understand nonverbal cues so that is crap, all dogs read the environment, so that is crap.

Don't try to bring it here, I was nice on the other board. Read and listen, don't start spouting off.
 
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