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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys,

in about 6 month to a year, I’d like to buy a new dog / puppy. It’s going to be either a Malinois or X-Herder (Malinois mixed with Dutch Shepherd). It’s going to be my third dog. The main reason for this dog is, because I want to use the dog as a protection dog. First of all to protect my property and second to protect my family.

My current question is, what kind of dog should I get? Some people / trainer say, that the puppy should be stable and calm. The other trainer say, that they are looking for extreme dogs / puppies. With crazy drive, focus, and so on. But on the other hand, not everyone can handle this kind of dogs and many of these dog owners get bitten. Most times even without purpose, but because the hand was between the teeth and the toy, the dog wanted to get.

So, the question is, what kind of dog should I get? Well some of you are going to say, the kind of dog, your trainer suggests to you. The problem is, that both trainers I’ve got on hand have their own breed program. And of course, they want to sell me their puppy. But sorry, I’m not going to pay 3 times as much, as I would with another breeder.

And what do I need to handle such “extreme” dog, with a high drive? I talked to a breeder of such dogs and he said, that with a strict hand, everyone can handle this dog. But I have to be the leader, because the dog is going to question the leadership every single day.
 

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Hi, if you are looking to get a dog purely for general protection you don't need a working line Malinois or Dutch x. The extreme drive (and 'working line') means this dog will require a lot of daily mental stimulation to keep it satisfied. If you don't have the time or the knowledge required to handle this type of demanding companion then it would not be a good breed choice. There are many other breeds that are great at protecting without the extra burden of daily mental and physical stimulation. Something like a GSD is already much easier to handle on a daily basis but also good at protecting. Or perhaps consider a show line Malinois instead of a working line one, lower drive but will still want to protect its home.
If, however, you are going to dedicate lots of training to creating a personal protection dog then a working line Malinois is a great option. Just make sure that the breeder you get this dog from has clear knowledge of the puppy's bloodline and if it will be suitable for this purpose. Bloodlines vary considerably so it matters. You definitely will not want a 'nervy' dog as it could then become unreliable and fear based aggression is never good. And if you are talking to breeders that are keen to sell their puppy to you then I would walk away. A good breeder is going to be very picky and will not be trying to 'sell' to you and especially for this type of dog a responsible breeder will want to be 100% their puppy is going to a home that can handle this type of dog.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
If, however, you are going to dedicate lots of training to creating a personal protection dog then a working line Malinois is a great option. Just make sure that the breeder you get this dog from has clear knowledge of the puppy's bloodline and if it will be suitable for this purpose. Bloodlines vary considerably so it matters. You definitely will not want a 'nervy' dog as it could then become unreliable and fear based aggression is never good. And if you are talking to breeders that are keen to sell their puppy to you then I would walk away. A good breeder is going to be very picky and will not be trying to 'sell' to you and especially for this type of dog a responsible breeder will want to be 100% their puppy is going to a home that can handle this type of dog.
Hey, thank you for your answer. Well I want to create a “real” personal protection dog. And I’m willing to put the time into the dog to train it. And yes, I contacted a breeder. And he knows the blood line very well. And he is also up to “create” a perfect dog. Currently I have already a GSD (show line), and yes, the dog is going to protect me. But this is not that kind of work, I need. It’s more like…. “Well, I warn you. Don’t come near. Don’t…. No. Last warning.” The Situation was escalating. And the protection dogs I watched, they go from 0 to 100% in a blink of an eye.

But on the other hand, what do I need to handle this kind of dog? Because in several FB-Groups there are a lot of offerings, that people are giving a Malinois away. Most of them, because they are aggressive, attacking other dogs and people, and so on.

Well, I trust the breeder, but I also want to have the knowledge what kind of puppy I want to get. Because now we have Corona, people are unemployed and maybe he want to make more money and sell me not the perfect puppy for my purpose.
 

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It’s hard to really tell anyone what kind of Malinois to get, my wife & I have 2 & we frequently get approached by people while out walking or training them, saying that they really want to get one or along what your asking what type they should get, because they see how well behaved they are or how smart they are when we are training.

We almost always give the same answer, telling them not to get one, because of how you previously mentioned, a lot of them end up being giving them away/re-homing/put down, all because people get these dogs thinking they are like every other breed.
Which they are 100% not like any other breed, the easiest way to explain it is a Malinois is the Ferrari of dogs, regardless of how high or low of a drive one has, their drive & intelligence is far beyond other breeds. As KRR92 mentioned these dogs require a lot of mental & physical training & if you can’t deliver that to a Malinois, they will destroy anything & everything around them out of pure boredom/frustration.

To give you an idea of how much work is required & this will obviously vary a little by each individual Malinois, this is what my wife & I do on a daily basis. Our Female is 2 years old & our Male is 9 months, I wake up at 1:30am every day to take them both out for 1.5-2.5 mile walk/jog before I go to work (this walk is really only to get them to go back to sleep until my wife wakes up at 5:30),my wife then works obedience & behavior training w/ 1-2 mile walks spread out through the the day & some free play time mixed in for them as needed until I get home from work, when I get home I then take them back out for another 2-3 mile walk w/ dinner after we get home, after about an hour after dinner I will do obedience tug w/ them for 30-45 min, sometimes 1 more 1 mile walk after & then bed time. That’s Monday-Friday, on the weekends we usually out all day going various places, hiking them in the early A.M.,we feed both their breakfast as treats doing obedience/behavior training while we are out, go to some large open parks/areas to play ball & tug, dinner at home.

Our dogs are typically walking/jogging a total around 10 miles a day, with probably an over all total of 4-5 hours of obedience/behavior training a day & they still test us every chance they get, I can also tell you without a shadow of doubt these 2 can do a lot more, they only eat when they eat & go to sleep at night out of routine because of how we shaped them. I can tell you with total confidence & transparency, these dogs respect the hell out of me & my wife because we command that respect from them, our dogs would never hurt either of us out of blind rage, but I can also tell you that even though these dogs love us to death, they will 100% lay teeth on us. This is because they are Malinois & Malinois love to bite things more than anything in the world lol, both my wife & I have been nipped a few times playing tug drawing blood, but like I always tell her, tug is a fun game but it’s also a dangerous game lol, if you make the mistake in the game & the dog bites you it’s your fault, you can’t get mad at the dog. But if the dog just goes straight for you & not the tug, then obviously there is a disconnect & the dog doesn’t understand the game as it should, which in the end actually also makes it your fault for not teaching the game correctly haha. I like to start bit inhibition when they are puppy’s though, I always put my hand in their mouths teaching them the difference in what’s ok to do to my hand & whats not acceptable.

if you truly think you can give this breed what it needs, then just do your research & choose the dog you think would be best & that you connect w/, I only chose my dogs based on connection, If I go to see a litter & connect w/1 then that’s the one I’m getting but if there is no connection then I move on & keep searching. But if your in doubt & don’t think you can give the dog what it needs, where it might end up causing damage to the dog mentally, creating unwanted/dangerous behavior, then I wouldn’t get one I would just admire/appreciate the dog for what it is & go w/ something a little easier, because these are really hard dogs, not saying they are impossible just very hard.
 

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Also, it’s pretty common for most Mals naturally tend to be apprehensive to outsiders, instinctively they will make people aware that they don’t know who they are & to keep their distance from them & their family.
Our girl is on the extreme end of the scale in this case, people & dogs cannot approach her or invade her space or she will back them off, we have to tell people that ask if they can meet her that they cannot. We have to tell everyone, do not talk to her & do not approach her, if you would like to take some time to talk w/ us & during the time if she decides to approach you then you may say hi, but if she doesn’t then talking to us is as far as you go. But even with that if our girl does approach you & let’s you say hi, if she gets a bad feeling from you she will immediately let you know & go on guard. Our boy is definitely more outgoing, mainly because he is so confident in him self & literally not scared of anything, so he will say hi to them but that doesn’t mean he’s not reading them, he can be as calm & friendly as can be but the same as out girl he’s always reading you so if any sketchy feeling comes to him he will let you know to back up.
They also are just naturally 24hour home alarms, we live in an apartment (100%not advised or recommended lol) but we are able to make it work & anyone knocks on our door or a surrounding neighbor’s door they both charge the front window barking, a kid roles by in a skateboard they hit the window, gardeners=hit the window, immediate neighbors insert key into front door=hit the window, hear/smell a cat walking by the window=hit the window, someone walking by w/ keys jingling=hit the window, fire trucks/police/ambulance sirens (We actually love this one & they do to) they don’t bark but they hit the window & howl like crazy getting as many neighboring dogs to howl w/ them (they do this when ever outside to) lol. Literally anything you can imagine that makes a noise, they run to that window pop them selfs between the curtains & start barking, letting the whole world know they are inside, stay away & stop making that noise lol, but at the same time we do not just allow them to bark uncontrollably, we only allow them to establish their presence & then we call them off to come to us or to go to their beds.
Needless to say Malinois just naturally guard their home & family.
 

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Get the dog that meets your needs. I'm so tired of threads on forums telling people what they need or don't need. I have two crosses and no I don't run them 20 miles a day to keep them in "control" such BS. I'm constantly laughing at people who think they were born to train or own a certain breed, what a joke. Get a puppy from a reputable breeder, stay away from show stock as they are what is commonly known as shitters in the real world!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
To be honest with you, this kind of dog I’d like to have. I think your comparison with the Ferrari is more than right. And I also think that I’m ready to drive one ;)

Well, I don’t know about other dog owners, but I also don’t care about getting bit. Neither when I play with a dog, and it’s just an accident because my hand was in between the dog and the reward or even when it’s a real bite directed to me.

Well, the obedience part of the training is ok, but to walk 10 miles a day… wow ;) I think, I will get a scooter for the “walks”.

And yes, I truly think, that this breed is what I can handle and what I can personally grow with. But I’m also not this “a dog for my birthday” kind of guy. When I want something, I can wait for it. My current timeline says, that I’m going to get a dog in-between April 2021 and April 2022. I think, I have enough time to find the right breeder and the right parent-dogs.

But there is a thing, I don’t understand: Why are so many dogs are given away or put down? Is it just because the other owners didn’t get the right knowledge about this breed? But on the other hand… my neighbors are struggling with their Maltese. But… In the street where I live, I guess in every third house lives a dog. I’m the only one, who’s training his dogs. Specially with the Maltese, I see the neighbors taking the dog for a long walk. But when they walk back, the dog is already in their arms, and they are carrying the dog home. The dog is 1 year old and do only what it wants.

Well….
 

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Many Malinois are given away or put down because too many people get them just because they think they are cool, or cute & they treat them like every other breed, they don’t know how to properly train a dog even at a basic level, so they end up reinforcing negative unwanted behavior. Then the dog grows up & they realize the dog it’s out of control, being destructive or aggressive in some way. One wife’s friends got a Mal thinking that way a little over a year ago, she use to think it was cute & funny when the 3-4 month old puppy would tear at her couch or would go into high prey drive growling, barking & pulling towards ducks, squirrels & dogs. She would even send my wife videos of it, with her laughing in the background thinking it was so funny/cute encouraging the behavior, letting the dog get as close as it wanted until the other animals would flee. Needless to say she realized it wasn’t funny or cute/cute anymore, as the dog was full grown & was to powerful for her to control being very aggressive to other dogs & people, she ended up putting the dog down at just over a year old unfortunately. Personally I don’t think that was the right decision, I think she took the easy way out & gave up on looking for someone truly qualified to take the dog in & rehab it, because she didn’t spend a whole lot of time searching for someone capable of fixing the dog.

I mean this can happen with any dog as I’m sure you have noticed w/ those Maltese, but it’s obviously a lot more serious & scary with powerful breeds, especially working breeds. Way to many people don’t know what they are doing w/ any kind of dog, too many people treat there dogs more as people than dogs, they care more about making sure their dogs meet & play with each other, they think dogs somehow need that when they really don’t, instead of actually focusing on good structure for the dog & then they turn around wondering why their dog is a total disaster.
 

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these threads have come up here dozens of times, so excuse me if you've already heard my take.
it is MUCH harder to train a dog for family protection than it is to train one for military or law enforcement. both of these venues can utilize a K9 that would NEVER be safe around a family. that makes the most important criteria for a family/property protection dog to be a BALANCED temperament and the higher the drive the harder it is to get balance

all the crap that you here about wanting a "real" dog that will know when to aggress and "defend" when it needs to is also crap. a dog will NEVER be able to evaluate a threat better than a human, and if allowed to do so, will eventually make the wrong decision and hurt an innocent. i could write a book about the many ways this can happen. a well balanced, confident, but still social dog will always be a better choice, and this is hard to train. and this type of dog is also EXTREMELY hard to proof under real life situations that call for scenarios that are light years apart from a training field bite work regimen or a simple home invasion scenario with all family members safely out of sight, etc

mals come in all flavor but the good ones are generally too high drive and lack an off switch, or they are too social and won't grip/hold when required. a balanced mal capable of living with a family and knowing the "who when and where" to be aggressive can be a unicorn. which often makes a well bred, high quality, working line GSD a better choice

i could go on, but i won't. just keep an open mind as well as a realistic one.

and in the meantime, show me some videos of a family protection dog performing around children and family friends......don't just show a dog that has had some IPO or other bitework training that will take a hidden sleeve.....that proves nothing and is usually all you see by websites proclaiming their expertise at training personal protection dogs or estate security dogs and asking a hefty price tag for their products :)

anyway, good luck in your quest and keep us posted as you are getting your PPD trained and whoever you end up working with, etc
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
and in the meantime, show me some videos of a family protection dog performing around children and family friends......don't just show a dog that has had some IPO or other bitework training that will take a hidden sleeve.....that proves nothing and is usually all you see by websites proclaiming their expertise at training personal protection dogs or estate security dogs and asking a hefty price tag for their products :)
Sure, I watched some clips of this guy:
Here you have a dog, that is guarding a Child. Some videos later he said, that the dog is actually the dog of this child, he is going to train it. And well, the dog seems to be one of the high drive dogs:


Another sample is here:
The dog is commanded do attack and so it does. And with another command, the attack stops. That's a kind of training, I want.
 

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i watched the first one. it is ABSOLUTELY NOT an example of training family protection. it is simply OB training with a young pup. to be more exact, it was mostly impulse control. which is necessary but worlds apart from PPD training.
clearly you don't know the difference and did not pay attention to what i wrote and what i consider the BASIC ingredient for PPD training

regarding the second one....i don't look at anything that uses "Antifa" click bait in the title :-(

re : "The dog is commanded do attack and so it does. And with another command, the attack stops. That's a kind of training, I want."
this statement is so overly simplified and general in nature it is not worth a comment, but if that's the kind of dog you want, start learning IPO or another similar sport. with a good club and serious members it will only take you a couple years to excel in those sports

- if you don't agree with what i wrote, please cut/paste those parts and start an intelligent conversation based on facts

bite work is thru patterned training is NOT family protection, PPD training. apples and oranges

actually the vast majority of situations in a family environment can be covered by training a rock solid bark and hold. do you even know what that means ? a good family protection dog should be mostly a deterrent

good luck
 

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If you consider getting a puppy I'd find a specific breed that fits your lifestyle and find a reputable breeder. Mix breed puppies are a total unknown in terms of what you're going to end up with as an adult. Look here https://fello.pet/en/dog-breeds/central-аsian-shepherd-dog/

For Mal's it's not so much about quantity of exercise, it's that you need to be 100% committed to training/working with them ALL THE TIME. They need an owner that is present in the relationship with them 24/7 and are not good pets for the average household that doesn't have their dogs as the focus of their life.
 

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When you've done enough of this stuff, you can see through all the show. To be honest, I didn't watch all the videos all the way though, because I didn't need to. Nothing impressive. I've "broken into" houses of people who have fully trained "PPDs" to put my money where my mouth is, after I let them know their dogs aren't what they think they are, and after saying Id break into their house with no bite gear on. The results were all predictable. Dog bayed, I made my way into whatever room I wanted.

Everyone wants the Navy SEAL's home protection K9, until they get one.

Just get a dog that barks, a firearm, and a lot of training.
 

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And what do I need to handle such “extreme” dog, with a high drive? I talked to a breeder of such dogs and he said, that with a strict hand, everyone can handle this dog.
I'd love to see this breeder handle my dog with a strict hand. After they sign a release of all liability, of course.
 
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