[Andres Martin]

Let's talk about dog training, huh? Let's compare notes a bit about bungees...and see if we can share some interesting stuff. I've read enough dog related philosophy to last for a while.
Who here uses bungees? How? Why? When (if) do you stop? What do you use on the decoy? What's your setup?

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

I've used bungies in 2 different ways... one wasn't really a bungie, it was a tie out with a spring in the line.... here are the ways I've used the bungie....

The purpose is to build grip firmness, teach the dog he loses the bite when he lets go... tie the dog to a tree/post in a bungie and either work myself or have the decoy make the dog miss the bite, build frustration, then when the dog bites, the decoy walks backwards n increases tension on the bungie to make the dog forced to hold on.... now, if I do this on my own I need to be very careful and not go very far so the dog doesn't fly backwards when he lets go, but if I am working with a helper it's much more effective because I can hold the dog on his harness so when he lets go, I can stop him from physically injuring himself. I think this is a pretty typical way people use the bungie.

The other thing I was talking about with the spring, let me show a photo here:

Basically the dog is on a harness with the tie-out on a swivel at the top of a tall post (like a horse walker), the decoy frustrates, then gives the dog a bite, then pulls the dog backwards... the dog is lifted off the ground with 4 paws by his grip... we did this a few times with Cujo, maybe 2 or 3 bite sessions, he went from letting go to holding on perfectly. The only downside to this is with a dog that strikes hard and high -- the dog can flip up and land on their back when the decoy makes the dog miss, so again, the handler needs to be vigilant and everyone must keep in mind the type of dog this is -- keeping the dog at the end of the line instead of letting the dog run to the end of the line will probably prevent this.

It also helps for general building of frustration.... making the dog work for the bite, and have to pull themselves against the pressure of the bungie to get to the decoy, and helps teach a dog to pull at the end of the line instead of just stand at the end of the line barking.

I'd be interested in seeing how other people use the bungie.

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

ttt

 

[Lou Castle]

I like the idea of the bungee for using back pressure to build the bite; but I don't like the bungee itself. I had one dog purposefully chew through it, in a few seconds so that he could get to me and bite. I've seen bungees break as well. With most of them you can't tell when they're reaching the end of their working life because the damage is inside the cover and can't be seen. Stepping on them or tossing other gear on top of them can cut the rubber cords but not the cover.

To get the spring effect I like to use a cable and tie it to the center of a section of chain link fence. I use a piece of mountain climbing rope and thread it through several links to spread out the force. The "give" in the fence section gives the same sort of spring as the bungee without the danger of breaking.

 

[Andres Martin]

Any more contributions? Or will this thread die of insufficient socialization? :roll:

 

[Andres Martin]

I use two bungee setups. The first is a braided bungee (three strand) that I use up short (3 meters) in conjunction with a long line. I use both the bungee and the long line attached to a harness. On the decoy, I use a "suit material" sleeve or suit (no jute). The dog always gets a bite, but if he doesn't bite down hard, he gets pulled off. The long line is there to prevent the dog from getting hurt when he's pulled back. I use this for all dogs until they are biting hard.

The second setup is a 5 meter long, single strand bungee attached to a harness. The dog always gets a bite, but as he gets closer to the decoy, he needs to pull harder. This I use to increase the entry speed. The entire bungee stretches out to aprox 10 meters. I use this for sport dogs only, as I find that super fast entries for a street dog can be dangerous for the dog.

 

[Hil Harrison]

I have never used a bungee so this makes interesting reading.....hope it doesnt die out...Im learning here :wink:

 

[Woody Taylor]

Andres and others...for people doing drive-building on their own, is there any worth to using bungees to decrease shock on the dog's neck as well? This would be a lighter setup than something that would yank the dog back, I'm just wondering why you wouldn't use this or Lou's setup to take some force out of the pressure on the dog's neck when it hits the end of the line.

I've started just some really light tie-out work with Annie for play. I don't have folks around to hold lines...or at least, nobody who would be interesting in doing so...

 

[Reinier Geel]

The bungee is a great way to get – mature working - attack dogs bite work training up a notch, especially on the hold - and bite work – dogs must not be bungee tied if they have not worked a lot of normal tie outs.

I have seen this happen; the young dog runs at the assailant and is yanked back with such a force that it scares the living daylights of them, rendering them dead on the line from there on out.

Thus, they do not want to play this game anymore. Ruining a lot of line work.

Make sure that the assailant is well with in reach and then back off, after the dog is on the bite, if to far even an experienced dog will get snapped back, rolling and injuring him self.

On a bungee rope, use a harness, not a collar.
:wink:

 

[Howard Gaines III]

Bungee tie outs I don't like. I want to know the exact distance the dog is from me. It is bad enough to have handlers who take a step forward on you. Bungees have advantages and so does 3/4" nylon rope! You still have some scope in the line, but not much. The big thing is to use a harness and not a wide collar. I use a 30' rope on a 4' post.

 

[Bryan Colletti]

Bungee tie outs I don't like. I want to know the exact distance the dog is from me. It is bad enough to have handlers who take a step forward on you. Bungees have advantages and so does 3/4" nylon rope! You still have some scope in the line, but not much. The big thing is to use a harness and not a wide collar. I use a 30' rope on a 4' post.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Howard if you use bungee's properly you will come to love them. Nothing builds a more explosive bite and better frustration during a miss.

The problem you encounter is one of Physics. Simply grab the bungee once it is attached to the tie out. Using all your strength like an oxen. Start to pull it as far as you can pull it, when you have reach the limit, mark that spot, place two cones a few feet apart so the dog has a lane to get his bite.

You now have a line on the ground that this dog can or can not reach you. I stoke a dog big time, and make them miss. Sometimes at first, that are like WTF? Then I stoke them again and make them miss, it is exhausting work for them. Then I make them miss several more times in succession at the end of the line, at the height of their frustration, I inch in to give them a bite on the suit or sleeve. I fight for a second, they win and off they go! One and done and building slowly from there.

You need to have the drive foundation for a bite there first, maximize their frustration to your advantage and let them fly

Bryan

 

[Howard Gaines III]

OK Bryan so what happens when the dog flies back and knocks himself out on the post? DUH! Or bites me and I go flying back with Mr. Crazy!!! LOL Thanks.

 

[Frank Phillips]

I do not use the bungee on the post...I have also seen dogs go flying after a miss......but I will use it as a leash (to the handler) and tension on Escape bites....make them explode up into the bite and really work for it.....I do not do this if a dog has a tendency to stay low for the bite because this can sometimes encourage the dog to stay on the groud.....But overall I have found this to be a effective tool for explosive escape bites.....

Frank

 

[Bryan Colletti]

OK Bryan so what happens when the dog flies back and knocks himself out on the post? DUH! Or bites me and I go flying back with Mr. Crazy!!! LOL Thanks.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Howard you always seem to describe this harrowing possibilities. Use your mind, free it from the clutter and visualize how your above situation might not happen.

"Use a long bungee, you set back and hold the bungee with a guide hand.

Now if you have a dog that will bite you up because he missed a decoy, then you are not a clear leader, have a bad training system, and have a horribly uninteresting decoy

That whole idea or theory behind the bungee is to make him miss, work up frustration and "TEACH HIMSELF" to explode into the bite at the last second so he will never miss, and hold on strong, so he never let's go of his prey.

Be at peace,
Bryan