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Patrick Murray said:
I feel like I have learned a lot from watching his show. I've met a couple of other dog people who were rather critical of him. What do you think? Thanks.
I think he's awesome and he lines up really well with training opinions I enjoy--Ed's, Volhard, Woodhouse, many of the best posters on this and other forums. He's special, I really enjoy how he changes dogs but I really pity some of them for their owners. His instructions about presence and assertiveness stick with me well, and they work, though I cannot get my dog to walk behind me to save my life.

I love his pit bull Daddy. I'm not a pit bull fan in general but that dog is just fantastic looking and acting.

Tape and watch it every week. I thought the recent one of him in the women's prison was especially good. Particularly when he took those three bites...he is one cool customer.
 

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Sarah Hall said:
I'm not a fan of some of his techniques.... Plus (from the few episodes I've seen) he doesn't explain some real reasons WHY a behavior is happening, no genetic aspect of it seems to be touched on. IMO, dog "behavioralists" should be required to have a basic knowledge of Canine Genetics and how they pertain to behaviors. Dog behavior stems from not only learned experiences, but genetic traits as well.
This same type of criticism came up in another forum (i.e., that he is not giving enough detail around the "whys" and (in the case of him using an ecollar on one ep) the "hows"). My own opinion here is that--in this case--canine genetics make for lousy TV, and in the other case, it would be highly irresponsible for him to introduce a tool like an ecollar in the context of a 20-minute segment on a show produced for entertainment. (Plus producers probably read enough dog forums to know they'd just irritate people :roll: :D .

I think his show deliberately keeps its focus in the right place, given its constraints: people, not dog focused; people, not dog faults, and really simply solutions (exercise-discipline-affection, in that order) that seem to be pretty universal among dog folks I read and see here and elsewhere.

And as Ed Frawley (I think?) pointed out a long time ago, anybody who can get that many dogs to follow him like he does must be doing something right.

Connie can elaborate on whether his books, etc. give more detail...my guess is that they do not...and I'd love to hear if someone has been to one of his seminars.
 

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Sarah Hall said:
I'm not a fan of some of his techniques.... Plus (from the few episodes I've seen) he doesn't explain some real reasons WHY a behavior is happening, no genetic aspect of it seems to be touched on. IMO, dog "behavioralists" should be required to have a basic knowledge of Canine Genetics and how they pertain to behaviors. Dog behavior stems from not only learned experiences, but genetic traits as well.
FWIW, he does do a little of this...good episode would be the one with the Bouvier des Flandres with little venting for its energy...Milan took it out to a sheep herder, the dog was herding within minutes (after taking a chunk out of a few sheep) and completely into it. It was really cool. I think he will speak to dog heritage--"the pit bull is supposed to fight other dogs," etc. but won't kill people with much more than that. Enough to make his point.
 

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Patrick Murray said:
Woody Taylor said:
[...it would be highly irresponsible for him to introduce a tool like an ecollar in the context of a 20-minute segment on a show produced for entertainment.
Excellent point!

I edited to add that pet dog owners would undoubtedly go out and buy these tools, not obtain any qualified guidance and then fry their dogs. So I would say it was very responsible not to discuss the ecollar.
Heh, this was what Connie and I were talking about a few weeks ago...give your average American the choice between 2 long minute walks a day with their pet mutt,, or buy a $300 ecollar and just zap the dog at will? They'll take the ecollar 90% of the time and screw up the dog 100% of the time.

That's not to knock ecollars, but you get my point. Your average pet owner is way too lazy for "real work" or for sophisticated training. Or training at all. Just this morning there was a lady letting her good-sized young Poodle zoom all around on its Gentle Leader and Flexilead. Hurt just to watch it, worse still, she probably thought she was being humane.

I think Milan does a pretty good job of setting up good ownership expectations (i.e., get off of your a$$) and I'm amazed at how many of these dogs never leave their yards. It's sad.
 

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Greg Long said:
Stacia,

A wolf desires to be with other wolves over all else.The pack is everything.A wolf will not come to man naturally,they may by association but not naturally.
A dog on the other hand will leave their own kind to be with man, naturally.The fact that dogs show some pack behavior doesnt make them pack animals.Couldnt you call some behaviors that you label "pack behavior" as being simply "social behavior"?
If you wish to look at dogs as pack animals then thats OK with me.I just thought I would share a different viewpoint.Afterall thats why we have this forum. :wink:

Greg

P.S.I often walk with 4 or 5 dogs sometimes off leash.they all stay in a loose heel position on either side.More dogs than that and I feel like Im pushing my luck..LOL.
I think that's really interesting, Greg, as someone new to dogs. All the references to pack behavior are based on a very different animal, I think everybody here would say that a wolf is miles away from most dogs. Pack is a pretty loaded term but I guess at the end of the day it's a way to communicate to people about what dogs are doing.

Offtopic...I really wish I would have had my camera with me a few weeks ago...our zoo has an excellent display of Mexican wolves...they are a subspecies of gray wolf, top out around 55-80 pounds with a stout, almost GSD build. They were about to feed them and these three dogs were running around in almost perfect synchronization with each other...alpha stops and sniff, the rest stop right behind him...it was amazing to watch and really different from any packs of dogs I've ever seen (though I have to admit those were mostly strays in backwoods Oklahoma).
 

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Sarah Hall said:
Since everyone is raving about this "Dog Whisperer" (the titled is "official" for about a dozen people, from what I've read), I'll look in the TV guide to see when this show airs locally, I'll watch a few episodes then I'll repost if my opinion has changed. Perhaps the episode or two I saw didn't do him justice?
You'll have fun, if nothing else, trying to figure out what steps/tools the editors take out for fear of angering the Gentle Leader set that is probably 90% of their core audience. See how many prongs, ecollars, submission techniqes, etc. you spot! :lol: I am sure the editors at NG have a heart attack trying to soft shoe some of his methods. He is not afraid to take down a dog, as near as I have seen so far. The episode with him calming the Jindo was pretty hectic...that dog was pretty pi$$ed and didn't mind opening up on CM.
 

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Sarah Hall said:
Thank god he isn't a Gentle Leader guy. I'll give him immediate credit for that! I'll take a close look next time it comes on, I didn't before, so that's probably where my opinion came from. I'm willing to give it a chance to reconsider :)
I think Connie pointed out that he likes to use the equipment that the owners have on hand, I guess I most often him seeing reversing a nylon leash and threading it through the handle to get a choke collar (not a fan of that myself, but there we are...). He will also use a neat device I don't see other places that forces a collar up higher on a dog's neck...don't know what you call it, my guess is most of you know what I'm talking about from your own experiences.

Definitely the most dramatic things he has done is, according to what other posters have stated on another forum, is choke out dominant dogs. They feel if you look at his posturing over the dog and how the dog is shown recovering that it's been choked out. My eyes are trained enough to detect that but he definitely throws down with dogs and will take them down hard by the throat if they go after him.
 

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Connie Sutherland said:
Woody Taylor said:
Sarah Hall said:
Thank god he isn't a Gentle Leader guy. I'll give him immediate credit for that! I'll take a close look next time it comes on, I didn't before, so that's probably where my opinion came from. I'm willing to give it a chance to reconsider :)
I think Connie pointed out that he likes to use the equipment that the owners have on hand, I guess I most often him seeing reversing a nylon leash and threading it through the handle to get a choke collar (not a fan of that myself, but there we are...). He will also use a neat device I don't see other places that forces a collar up higher on a dog's neck...don't know what you call it, my guess is most of you know what I'm talking about from your own experiences.

Definitely the most dramatic things he has done is, according to what other posters have stated on another forum, is choke out dominant dogs. They feel if you look at his posturing over the dog and how the dog is shown recovering that it's been choked out. My eyes are trained enough to detect that but he definitely throws down with dogs and will take them down hard by the throat if they go after him.
The one everyone detected (dog in next scene is waking from nap) was Emily, the Pit. I saw it too, and you would too, Woody. It was a one-dog episode. Emily was "red-zone" and had to come to live with his pack for a few weeks.

But your post sounds scary and violent to me! :wink: Actually, having seen every episode and him (a few times), and having read the book, I feel very strongly that he uses the least tool necessary in all situations.

It's hard to remember that almost every time we see him on TV, it's with such a problem dog (meaning, has been biting or has killed) that CM was called.

That's when he fashions a choke or takes an Illusion collar with him (his design of a dominant-dog collar).

Again, he often says "I have no issue with anyone's choice of tools. Tools are not the point."

And also again, he saves dogs who would otherwise be put down.

OK, I'll stop. A groupie at my age........ :oops:
A triple-post!

I didn't see that one, I always thought they were referring to one I had seen and I felt even more dumb for not being able to see an unconscious dog. :oops: :D

Violently agree with you about humane methods. I guess what I was trying to say is that (in my opinion) his notion of humane lines up quite nicely with modern working dog trainers here in this forum.
 

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Connie Sutherland said:
Bob Scott said:
BTW! Cesar is having a seminar here in St. Louis in November, Sunday 11th.
The only time I wish I lived down in Southern California instead of up here on the Monterey Bay is when I think about his facility and seminars in L.A.

And Disneyland, also down there.

:cry:
Okay, Connie, one more comment about how tough life it on Monterrey and I will find a less abusive chatroom. :p
 
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