Working Dog Forums banner
1 - 20 of 48 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
814 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I feel like I have learned a lot from watching his show. I've met a couple of other dog people who were rather critical of him. What do you think? Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,973 Posts
Patrick Murray said:
I feel like I have learned a lot from watching his show. I've met a couple of other dog people who were rather critical of him. What do you think? Thanks.
I think he's awesome and he lines up really well with training opinions I enjoy--Ed's, Volhard, Woodhouse, many of the best posters on this and other forums. He's special, I really enjoy how he changes dogs but I really pity some of them for their owners. His instructions about presence and assertiveness stick with me well, and they work, though I cannot get my dog to walk behind me to save my life.

I love his pit bull Daddy. I'm not a pit bull fan in general but that dog is just fantastic looking and acting.

Tape and watch it every week. I thought the recent one of him in the women's prison was especially good. Particularly when he took those three bites...he is one cool customer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
632 Posts
I'm not a fan of some of his techniques.... Plus (from the few episodes I've seen) he doesn't explain some real reasons WHY a behavior is happening, no genetic aspect of it seems to be touched on. IMO, dog "behavioralists" should be required to have a basic knowledge of Canine Genetics and how they pertain to behaviors. Dog behavior stems from not only learned experiences, but genetic traits as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,973 Posts
Sarah Hall said:
I'm not a fan of some of his techniques.... Plus (from the few episodes I've seen) he doesn't explain some real reasons WHY a behavior is happening, no genetic aspect of it seems to be touched on. IMO, dog "behavioralists" should be required to have a basic knowledge of Canine Genetics and how they pertain to behaviors. Dog behavior stems from not only learned experiences, but genetic traits as well.
This same type of criticism came up in another forum (i.e., that he is not giving enough detail around the "whys" and (in the case of him using an ecollar on one ep) the "hows"). My own opinion here is that--in this case--canine genetics make for lousy TV, and in the other case, it would be highly irresponsible for him to introduce a tool like an ecollar in the context of a 20-minute segment on a show produced for entertainment. (Plus producers probably read enough dog forums to know they'd just irritate people :roll: :D .

I think his show deliberately keeps its focus in the right place, given its constraints: people, not dog focused; people, not dog faults, and really simply solutions (exercise-discipline-affection, in that order) that seem to be pretty universal among dog folks I read and see here and elsewhere.

And as Ed Frawley (I think?) pointed out a long time ago, anybody who can get that many dogs to follow him like he does must be doing something right.

Connie can elaborate on whether his books, etc. give more detail...my guess is that they do not...and I'd love to hear if someone has been to one of his seminars.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
11,728 Posts
When working with clients, it is better not to clutter up what you are doing with nonsense like why the dog is doing it. People that do like to clutter up your hour with that nonsense take peoples money, usually to the tune of 300$ an hour. and accomplish "F" all. I get these people occasionally, and they sure know why the dog is doing what he is doing, but cannot get him/her to stop.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,973 Posts
Sarah Hall said:
I'm not a fan of some of his techniques.... Plus (from the few episodes I've seen) he doesn't explain some real reasons WHY a behavior is happening, no genetic aspect of it seems to be touched on. IMO, dog "behavioralists" should be required to have a basic knowledge of Canine Genetics and how they pertain to behaviors. Dog behavior stems from not only learned experiences, but genetic traits as well.
FWIW, he does do a little of this...good episode would be the one with the Bouvier des Flandres with little venting for its energy...Milan took it out to a sheep herder, the dog was herding within minutes (after taking a chunk out of a few sheep) and completely into it. It was really cool. I think he will speak to dog heritage--"the pit bull is supposed to fight other dogs," etc. but won't kill people with much more than that. Enough to make his point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
814 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Woody Taylor said:
[...it would be highly irresponsible for him to introduce a tool like an ecollar in the context of a 20-minute segment on a show produced for entertainment.
Excellent point!

I edited to add that pet dog owners would undoubtedly go out and buy these tools, not obtain any qualified guidance and then fry their dogs. So I would say it was very responsible not to discuss the ecollar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,973 Posts
Patrick Murray said:
Woody Taylor said:
[...it would be highly irresponsible for him to introduce a tool like an ecollar in the context of a 20-minute segment on a show produced for entertainment.
Excellent point!

I edited to add that pet dog owners would undoubtedly go out and buy these tools, not obtain any qualified guidance and then fry their dogs. So I would say it was very responsible not to discuss the ecollar.
Heh, this was what Connie and I were talking about a few weeks ago...give your average American the choice between 2 long minute walks a day with their pet mutt,, or buy a $300 ecollar and just zap the dog at will? They'll take the ecollar 90% of the time and screw up the dog 100% of the time.

That's not to knock ecollars, but you get my point. Your average pet owner is way too lazy for "real work" or for sophisticated training. Or training at all. Just this morning there was a lady letting her good-sized young Poodle zoom all around on its Gentle Leader and Flexilead. Hurt just to watch it, worse still, she probably thought she was being humane.

I think Milan does a pretty good job of setting up good ownership expectations (i.e., get off of your a$$) and I'm amazed at how many of these dogs never leave their yards. It's sad.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts
Sarah Hall said:
I'm not a fan of some of his techniques.... Plus (from the few episodes I've seen) he doesn't explain some real reasons WHY a behavior is happening, no genetic aspect of it seems to be touched on. IMO, dog "behavioralists" should be required to have a basic knowledge of Canine Genetics and how they pertain to behaviors. Dog behavior stems from not only learned experiences, but genetic traits as well.
Well, I was amazed at what he DOES know of genetics (and pack structure) when I saw him (seminar).

I'm extremely impressed with him and have been for years.

His TV show is a TV show, with producers. When I wrote to his assistant, he called the producers and asked why they "hid" the e-collar on the famous episode that caused outrage on another forum, and I got an immediate, personal, non-stock reply from the producer.

He uses what the owner has been using. They had been using an e-collar and wanted him to use it. He didn't have time to explain or discuss its use in a 20-minute segment, but he DID say he was using it at the owner's behest. The producer edited out the comment. He will have an episode in the future addressing tools.

His book (just finished it a couple weeks ago) is addressed to his audience: owners who don't know how to be a pack leader. It does this very well.

They are really his audience, too, and IMO, he is perfect for them.

His seminars are open.........I haven't been to one in a while, but he will adjust to the attening people's level.

And yes......no one with his success rate can be doing it wrong, IMO. I think he's part dog.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts
Woody Taylor said:
Patrick Murray said:
I feel like I have learned a lot from watching his show. I've met a couple of other dog people who were rather critical of him. What do you think? Thanks.
I think he's awesome and he lines up really well with training opinions I enjoy--Ed's, Volhard, Woodhouse, many of the best posters on this and other forums. He's special, I really enjoy how he changes dogs but I really pity some of them for their owners. His instructions about presence and assertiveness stick with me well, and they work, though I cannot get my dog to walk behind me to save my life.

I love his pit bull Daddy. I'm not a pit bull fan in general but that dog is just fantastic looking and acting.

Tape and watch it every week. I thought the recent one of him in the women's prison was especially good. Particularly when he took those three bites...he is one cool customer.
I agree with every word here. Yeah, that prison episode was pretty good.... and he never turns a hair (that I've seen); never loses his calm; never gets emotional around the dog; never angry or frustrated. Calm-assertive 'R' Us! :lol:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
632 Posts
To each his own then...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
528 Posts
While I think Cezar is a very good hand with dogs,I choose to look at things a little differently.

I like the walking and calm assertiveness and the fact that he is in control all the time.

I dont believe dogs are true pack animals.Wolves are true pack animals and dogs are more social than pack oriented.Although the pack concept is an improvement for most people.

I dont like the fact that he keeps a tight leash all time while walking.This just keeps the dog cocked.

Overall the message is a great improvement over what most pet owners believe.

JMO

Greg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Part of what makes him special is his delivery of information. I've learned a lot about how to phrase things to people who aren't really great at 'getting' what I'm saying. He's really good at working with the people, even though I think he'd like to strangle some owners, especially when they don't seem to appreciate his effort and time with them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
398 Posts
Greg Long said:
I dont believe dogs are true pack animals.Wolves are true pack animals and dogs are more social than pack oriented.Although the pack concept is an improvement for most people.
Greg, I'm interested in this statement. Can you explain what you mean by "social animals" and how this affects interpretation of what we all see as "pack dynamics"?

I have never seen Cesar Milan's shows but I have heard a great deal about them. I have to agree with whomever said that he must be doing something right to get these dogs to follow him. I also agree with Jeff that the "why" is not always important when a trainer is helping someone with a dog problem (I encounter this in my field a lot: sometimes the long "why" explanation is not as effective as simply helping the parent(s) do the thing I'm talking about). With most people short, sweet, adn to the point is the shortest distant between two points...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts
Greg Long said:
While I think Cezar is a very good hand with dogs,I choose to look at things a little differently. ... I like the walking and calm assertiveness and the fact that he is in control all the time..... I dont believe dogs are true pack animals.Wolves are true pack animals and dogs are more social than pack oriented.Although the pack concept is an improvement for most people. ... I dont like the fact that he keeps a tight leash all time while walking.This just keeps the dog cocked. ... Overall the message is a great improvement over what most pet owners believe. ...JMO

Greg
These are good points. The tight leash is what we see (and it's relaxed but short, in his hand, unless he releases the dog, I believe)..... his own pack goes up in the mountains above L.A. with him for hours every morning, all off-lead. I guess many of us have have seen him trotting in front of a pack of 30+ dogs, all following him and all off-lead, in the mountains (where they had driven in vans), nearing the end of a 2-3-hour walk-and-run.......at least on video.

I imagine everyone has heard the kind of dogs who make up that pack, so I won't go into that part. (I really like Daddy, too.)

On TV, we see him when he's doing a beginning (usually) lesson with a dog who is enough of a problem to pay for CM to come in, not so much with a dog he knows, on a casual walk. :D


P.S. And yes, of course, to each his own. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear, and for me, in many ways, it was CM. My own know-how rocketed with his instruction.........but of course, that's all a matter of degree! :oops: :oops: I wasn't starting from dizzying heights! :lol: :lol:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
528 Posts
Stacia,

A wolf desires to be with other wolves over all else.The pack is everything.A wolf will not come to man naturally,they may by association but not naturally.
A dog on the other hand will leave their own kind to be with man, naturally.The fact that dogs show some pack behavior doesnt make them pack animals.Couldnt you call some behaviors that you label "pack behavior" as being simply "social behavior"?
If you wish to look at dogs as pack animals then thats OK with me.I just thought I would share a different viewpoint.Afterall thats why we have this forum. :wink:

Greg

P.S.I often walk with 4 or 5 dogs sometimes off leash.they all stay in a loose heel position on either side.More dogs than that and I feel like Im pushing my luck..LOL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,973 Posts
Greg Long said:
Stacia,

A wolf desires to be with other wolves over all else.The pack is everything.A wolf will not come to man naturally,they may by association but not naturally.
A dog on the other hand will leave their own kind to be with man, naturally.The fact that dogs show some pack behavior doesnt make them pack animals.Couldnt you call some behaviors that you label "pack behavior" as being simply "social behavior"?
If you wish to look at dogs as pack animals then thats OK with me.I just thought I would share a different viewpoint.Afterall thats why we have this forum. :wink:

Greg

P.S.I often walk with 4 or 5 dogs sometimes off leash.they all stay in a loose heel position on either side.More dogs than that and I feel like Im pushing my luck..LOL.
I think that's really interesting, Greg, as someone new to dogs. All the references to pack behavior are based on a very different animal, I think everybody here would say that a wolf is miles away from most dogs. Pack is a pretty loaded term but I guess at the end of the day it's a way to communicate to people about what dogs are doing.

Offtopic...I really wish I would have had my camera with me a few weeks ago...our zoo has an excellent display of Mexican wolves...they are a subspecies of gray wolf, top out around 55-80 pounds with a stout, almost GSD build. They were about to feed them and these three dogs were running around in almost perfect synchronization with each other...alpha stops and sniff, the rest stop right behind him...it was amazing to watch and really different from any packs of dogs I've ever seen (though I have to admit those were mostly strays in backwoods Oklahoma).
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts
Connie Sutherland said:
Greg Long said:
.......P.S.I often walk with 4 or 5 dogs sometimes off leash.they all stay in a loose heel position on either side.More dogs than that and I feel like Im pushing my luck..LOL.
I consider that to be an excellent indication of your strong alpha position, and your good dog-training.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
528 Posts
Connie,

Anyone who knows me, knows better than to give me a compliment..LOL. :twisted:

But thanks anyway... :lol:

Greg
 
G

·
Connie, I'll be the judge of that when I get Caleb back. I demand perfection, and I mean PERFECTION! :twisted: :p

Must admit, his dogs know better than to screw around on his watch; he runs a pretty tight ship with some pretty headstrong pooches...man, I HATE compliments...ouch. :x
 
1 - 20 of 48 Posts
Top