Working Dog Forums banner
21 - 40 of 50 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,675 Posts
Howard,

Again there is a difference between negative reinforcement and corrections. I repeat, I am not using the prong for harsh corrections but as a communication tool. I will choose Michael Ellis's methods over Khoi with all due respect to Khoi.
I know the difference. I made the post primarily to give an example of a dog that becomes collar smart. That said...IF your dog is capable of protection work well, sooner or later you're going to need a meaningful correction. My dog knows that the prong is big medicine but it only comes out as a reminder when we are doing extreme aggression training. That reminder alone ensures that he keeps a clear head during those times as it is very easy for a dog to lose control of himself and omit the handler ie: ignore and refuse to comply with commands. Something that a lot of handlers have issues with.

Michael Ellis is a great trainer and I have learned much from him. You can't go wrong with his easy to understand instruction.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
I don't know how Michael Ellis uses leash pressure.

Here's the problem, as I see it, with using leash pressure to "guide" your dog into position - it becomes part of the cue. So instead of Sit, the cue is now Sit, leash pop (or pressure) and then the dog complies. Instead of the fast, snappy sit that judges like to see, you have a slow, grudging sit. Still might be correct, but not going to get you top points. Plus, well, what are you going to do, when you've taught your dog he doesn't need to comply until he feels the leash pressure, and you don't have a leash on the dog?

You can lose a lot of points in a trial for sloppy, slow, not quite right elements, like sits and basic position.

I was shown. over the years of owning dogs, a lot of ways to get them to heel. By far, the most effective, for a competition style focused heel, was to teach an absolutely correct basic position first - to have that so solid, before ever taking a step, that when I do start moving, the dog remains correct.

Baby steps. One step forward - return to basic position. One step forward and sideways, quarter turn, one step backwards. This will help your dog solidify what is being asked of him - that he remain focused on you, next to you, with his shoulder at your knee and body parallel to yours. Oh yeah, and make it fun, too.

I've posted this before recently in another thread to show what I mean. Just me and my Dutchie and a handful of kibble doing heel work. It's not brilliant training, she's sloppy, and so am I, but she's happy and trying hard and there's no leash or collar to make her do it.

https://youtu.be/GsTGMV9y4To

Do you have video - even just messing about with your dog? I'd be interested to see what and how you are training.
I love how in this forum people completely take my statements and misinterpret them (hopefully not intentionally).

No, I did not teach my dog to sit using leash pressure. I taught him to sit using markers. Now that he completely understands the behavior, I will use leash pressure to remind him to pay attention to my command. If I take him in a medium to high distraction environment I will say sit and sometimes he will be distracted. I will use a nope marker to give him another shot to do the correct behavior. If he still ignores me, then I will use a subtle pull on the prong and 99% of the time he will then sit.

I have to ask. Are there are a lot of Denise Fenzi fans on here? I am not a fan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,032 Posts
I love how in this forum people completely take my statements and misinterpret them (hopefully not intentionally).

No, I did not teach my dog to sit using leash pressure. I taught him to sit using markers. Now that he completely understands the behavior, I will use leash pressure to remind him to pay attention to my command. If I take him in a medium to high distraction environment I will say sit and sometimes he will be distracted. I will use a nope marker to give him another shot to do the correct behavior. If he still ignores me, then I will use a subtle pull on the prong and 99% of the time he will then sit.

I have to ask. Are there are a lot of Denise Fenzi fans on here? I am not a fan.
I'm coming into the thread late. Just me as an outsider looking in here's what I see.

Chris making statements. People responding to what he's writing but being told they are misinterpreting what he is writing. People offering suggestions on further of Chris' statements and again being told he is or isn't doing this or that but still not getting what he's asking for. Sounds a lot like dog training to me. Chris is the handler, the forum is the dog.... the forum is trying to understand that the handler wants but there appears to be a lot of mis-cueing going on. The Dog (forum) is getting, perhaps unintentional, conflicting signals from the handler.

In such situations, as in real training, perhaps it's time to change up the paradigm and the handler (Chris) needs to come at his instruction from another way. Clearly just using words isn't getting the job done nor referring people to an Ellis video isn't the answer either as this does not accurately reflect how the Handler (aka Chris) has chosen to interpret it which can be subtlety different than how the original person does it.

That all being said it's time for some video to clear up the confusion. In order for the dog (aka Forum) to clearly get what the handler wants, the handler needs to refocus and clarify his expectations. I'm seeing some excellent suggestions, based on the OP statements, but the dog(s) ar being told they are not getting to the root of the issue. It's time to post some film and let the dogs see what is EXACTLY going on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
676 Posts
Watching that video of Michael Ellis, I feel like that video was gear more toward pet training people and not competition training, I don't have any video of him but I have heard and seen before from short video that he is a lure base/verbal marker trainer, surely, he wouldn't use a prong to lure the dog into position? On your previous post, you said you are using leash pressure to get him into position, now you said you use it as a correction when he is distracted, which is fine with me, I have no problem with correction, you said I assumed stuff, I don't , I just know that your foundation is not solid if you have to use leash with a prong to get into position, it is you that assumed that we are all positive trainers here. But as to your question, prong collar awareness, that is a wrong question, the dog should respect your command whether he knows if he has a prong on him or not, you gain that respect by the consistency of your correction for noncompliant and reward with obeying.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Khoi, all I can say is buy the Ellis Focused Heeling video. It might be able to teach a seasoned expert trainer like yourself a few new tricks. :) I am done this with this topic. This is a complete waste of time and I would rather spend the time watching Leerburg videos, getting tips from other forums, and most importantly working with my dog.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,868 Posts
In my 10 yrs as a Mod on this forum and longer then that on another I have found there will always be what I call "yes but" folks.

They ask a question on how something is done and when the answer is given, out comes the "yes but".

I doubt any two people here will train exactly like the other person. Our dogs and our own temperaments/personalities will guarantee that.

That's a personal choice but ideas from others are how we learn and move forward with training.

NOT "yes but".

If someone has trained and titled a dog with a given method then it works.

When I started with marker work people were snickering ans scoffing at it.

Don't use it if you don't like but don't critisize and call names if you disagree.

Obviously the OP has decided what works for him so all I can say is best of luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Bob,

I really did not want to keep this thread going, but I will say this. I don't know how I would be a "Yes, but" person. Some of the folks here, instead of offering advice and saying this is one way to approach the problem or their way to approach it, are instead correcting anything I do or say and basically saying their approach is the one true way. The fact that several people here are not familiar with Michael Ellis is frankly surprising for a "Working Dog Forum" Maybe this forum was great before, but there is probably a reason why it is not as active as it used to be. The judgmental attitude is probably one big reason and the fact that some people here seem to think they know a lot more than they actually do. Maybe this is due to the numerous erroneous assumptions some people have inferred about my questions. Reviewing the older threads (when this forum was in its heyday) has been helpful, but I would not recommend this forum for anybody getting into the dog sports, at least not based on what I have experienced.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,868 Posts
Chris I have most of the Ellis videos and I don't recall any time it was suggested to use a pinch or any other collar to get guide a dog into heel position.

Luring with food yes.

All of his videos concerning corrections are talked about AFTER the dog truly understands the behavior and not guiding them into it wth a pinch.

I'll do a quick run through on the heeling video tomorrow if I get the chance but I'm past may bedtime for tonight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,422 Posts
- in my opinion, the Ellis clip provided by the OP was no different than Bart Bellon showing off his NEoPOPO method, or whatever he calls it
- and both were using markers while they were doing it
- both have trained a LOT of working dogs; not just pets

i like to see vids of using prongs properly and the Ellis clip falls into that category for me
- the earlier a dog can learn to respond correctly to pressure the better...in my book

most every dog i've ever worked with was "savvy" about any item they were wearing, including a prong, Ecollar or choker
- for that matter even flat collars, leads or even a bandanna :)

most any mwd handler will tell you when a work collar or harness goes on the dog knows it's going to work, so i personally don't have a big problem with a dog being equipment savvy...even with a pet dog :)

if you want to eliminate the dog from being being equipment savvy, don't use ANY and see if the dog will work for YOU
...easier said than done and most young pups have limited attention spans for anything but the most simple stuff //rotflmao//
- thats why collars and leads get put on early on !

when attitudes get in the way the learning stops
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,728 Posts
You will not be missed.

A few people, myself included, tried to offer advice. People with real, practical experience and success training and trialing dogs in the sport you are interested in. Threads drift off topic... it's the way of message boards, and often a good exchange of ideas happens, and someone, somewhere, not just the original poster, picks up an interesting little nugget of wisdom that helps them. Ideally, anyway. Sometimes it just degenerates into a pissing contest or name calling.

Sorry you don't think we have anything to contribute to your training plan. Frankly, I doubt you will accomplish much with your dog, but I'd love to see you come back with video and show me I'm wrong.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,675 Posts
Chris,

I love how you throw out the Leerburg/Ellis name as the go-to for you. Have a look at the Leerburg members list and you'll find myself, Bob Scott and quite a few others on this board that have been members on Leerburg for easily over 10-15 years. We frequent this forum for a reason.

Yes Ellis is a very good trainer. He has great people skills and easily gets his message across to even the most thick people. Leerburg made Ellis a household name. Not taking anything away from Ellis but without the Leerburg big push I don't think he would be as popular, but still a good trainer.

Take your Husky and do what you will. If you are successful in reaching your lofty goal in making him a PP dog then good for you. Just remember...a dog that bites does not a PP dog make. For real PP dog training you might find yourself back here. Doubtfully you'll get much help though. Good luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,032 Posts
....throw out the Leerburg/Ellis name as the go-to
I dug out a couple of the Leerburg dvd's last night. Parked the dogs in front of the telly and told them to pay attention as there would be a quiz at the end......

Didn't work out like I thought it would. :oops:

Guess its back to old-fashioned basics for me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
Discussion Starter · #34 ·
I don't know how Michael Ellis uses leash pressure.

Here's the problem, as I see it, with using leash pressure to "guide" your dog into position - it becomes part of the cue. So instead of Sit, the cue is now Sit, leash pop (or pressure) and then the dog complies. Instead of the fast, snappy sit that judges like to see, you have a slow, grudging sit. Still might be correct, but not going to get you top points. Plus, well, what are you going to do, when you've taught your dog he doesn't need to comply until he feels the leash pressure, and you don't have a leash on the dog?

You can lose a lot of points in a trial for sloppy, slow, not quite right elements, like sits and basic position.

I was shown. over the years of owning dogs, a lot of ways to get them to heel. By far, the most effective, for a competition style focused heel, was to teach an absolutely correct basic position first - to have that so solid, before ever taking a step, that when I do start moving, the dog remains correct.

Baby steps. One step forward - return to basic position. One step forward and sideways, quarter turn, one step backwards. This will help your dog solidify what is being asked of him - that he remain focused on you, next to you, with his shoulder at your knee and body parallel to yours. Oh yeah, and make it fun, too.

I've posted this before recently in another thread to show what I mean. Just me and my Dutchie and a handful of kibble doing heel work. It's not brilliant training, she's sloppy, and so am I, but she's happy and trying hard and there's no leash or collar to make her do it.

https://youtu.be/GsTGMV9y4To

Do you have video - even just messing about with your dog? I'd be interested to see what and how you are training.
- in my opinion, the Ellis clip provided by the OP was no different than Bart Bellon showing off his NEoPOPO method, or whatever he calls it
- and both were using markers while they were doing it
- both have trained a LOT of working dogs; not just pets

i like to see vids of using prongs properly and the Ellis clip falls into that category for me
- the earlier a dog can learn to respond correctly to pressure the better...in my book

most every dog i've ever worked with was "savvy" about any item they were wearing, including a prong, Ecollar or choker
- for that matter even flat collars, leads or even a bandanna :)

most any mwd handler will tell you when a work collar or harness goes on the dog knows it's going to work, so i personally don't have a big problem with a dog being equipment savvy...even with a pet dog :)

if you want to eliminate the dog from being being equipment savvy, don't use ANY and see if the dog will work for YOU
...easier said than done and most young pups have limited attention spans for anything but the most simple stuff //rotflmao//
- thats why collars and leads get put on early on !

when attitudes get in the way the learning stops
Rick, thank you. That was the most thoughtful and non-judgmental response I have received so far. That is the helpful response I was looking for in the original question that mutated off topic into others essentially telling me that I'm doing it all wrong, they know best, and their way is the only way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Chris,
Take your Husky and do what you will. If you are successful in reaching your lofty goal in making him a PP dog then good for you. Just remember...a dog that bites does not a PP dog make. For real PP dog training you might find yourself back here. Doubtfully you'll get much help though. Good luck.
Howard,

I never ever stated that I wanted my dog to be a personal protection dog. All I ever said that I was going to attempt to train my dog in a ring sport for the fun and challenge of it. It is my understanding that training in a ring sport is completely different from personal protection training. That's not to say that ring sport dogs can't go into personal protection, but many ring sports dogs essentially see the bite work as an advanced game of tug for the most part and would most likely never bite a person unless they were dressed up in a bite suit.

I like Michael Ellis because he always explains in detail why something is done the way it is, unlike some trainers that don't know the science behind something or just simply don't like to be questioned because of overinflated egos. And I think anyone can see in his teaching style, that despite his popularity, this guy is not full of himself in comparison to some other trainers.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,675 Posts
Howard,

I never ever stated that I wanted my dog to be a personal protection dog. All I ever said that I was going to attempt to train my dog in a ring sport for the fun and challenge of it. .
My mistake. You in fact did request info about doing sport work. Don't know where I got the PP thought.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,306 Posts
Chris, in the exact context your question was presented I'd have to say this: you don't, not if the collar is correctly fitted. The dog is always going to be aware of the physical presence of the collar. Depending upon your training style and the dog, some may even react favorably to it as mentioned earlier - such as designating the initiation of certain working aspects.

As for answering your question in a broader sense such as general collar awareness, this is something covered fairly extensively in the archives. In the simplest terms you achieve that through a good foundation and correct use of these tools. I don't know you from Adam but it's clear you've been spending time educating yourself on various topics so I assume you have the means to sort that out.

About all that other nonsense you were cycling through, it happens. I'd probably get the same type of response on my first post on the Leerburg forum if I ever joined it. Just the way it goes. Its the nature of the beast (online communication). So forgive me and my hill people, we don't get company much. ;)
 
21 - 40 of 50 Posts
Top