I found years ago that SAR groups are very “ hoyti toyti “ something like un touchable . I had already trained to SCH3 from puppy , at the time one of about 200 in the USA to do so and had a tracking title too. I was k 9 trainer at the time so working with really good dogs was not new. I offered a challenge of search and rescue theirs against mine with a bag of dog food to the winner. But essentially kicked out as my dog was also a certified K 9 patrol dog which meant he was certified to do anything K 9 dogs were authorized to do including search and rescue narc detection and criminal apprehension. He was never Beaten in tracking bets Needless to say he was well protection trained and had as good obedience as any AKC. Thing as a test we did an obedience test never practiced with perfect score. He was trained in 3 languages and could easily work with different handlers with a one word so called “ pass code”. So after the SAR asked us to leave we did and never went back sorry SAR. That’s what happened they did not like the deep nose tracking , they wanted “ movie” style wild woods barking ans running heater smelter until. The dog stumbled onto the person or object . I be offending but I tell it like it was. My dog was a once in a lifetime dog and to this day I’m proud of his accomplishments even with my own ineptitude.
Typical Documentation and learning methods
I’ve been volunteering as a training assistant with a local canine SAR group. Recently, I’ve been asked to fill the role of support person in the field behind a handler during training sessions. I’ve been trying to pick up on the operational and communication protocols that a support person needs to understand to be competent in that role. I recently asked if there were any documents or instructional material that I could review to come up to speed on the support role. The response I received stated that the group does not have or need any documents of that sort because they are one of the best canine SAR groups in the state and they got that way by changing how they do things based on the circumstances at any given time. That seems to me to be a very tribal approach to learning and operational organization. My question: Is that approach typical for canine SAR groups and I simply need to learn to adapt from situation to situation? I hesitate to bring it up at a meeting and put myself at odds with the group leadership and culture.
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@Bentwings - Thank you for your response. It would seem that I simply need to adapt to a slightly different approach to training. I’ve worked with a few responder disciplines from Fire & Rescue to Wilderness Recovery. Each has had their unique vocabulary and inter-team protocols… most of which were either presented in various .pdf presentations or a ‘basics’ handbook of sorts. To encounter a group that sees no need to capture and codify their operations runs counter to any FEMA or Emergency Management training I’ve taken over the years. I guess the bottom line is that they have had notable success, so it’s hard to say that their approach is incorrect. I just suspect it’s going to take a little longer to learn the ropes than it might otherwise.
I had to go back and read your post again after I thought about it . So they want you to learn by observation . Frankly without some kind of spoken or person to person instruction I think this is the hard and wrong way to learn. My trading as human was pretty brutal physically and mentally . I graduated from poop of the lowest living creature on the planet to the second lowest living thing on the planet after several lessons . Not bad! Then to the dumbest thing that creeps craws slithers on the bottom of the cesspool . Amid a number of smacks with the bamboo rattle stick . Eventually working up to being the dumbest student ever created. Eventually I was allowed to begin using my dog . Teaching the dog how to search for a starting point was a whole new world I had to learn what the dog was showing by his intensity then how to increase this The dog have to learn there was a reason why we out in some remote field in a down pour . Mike stones were made the dog often got a majority of his dinner tracking at first. He learned there were snakes and other ground animals ignore then the travck wasn’t always straight lines and some time someone else crossed the track then we learned that just sniffing for a person wasn’t always the goal . , he might have to find a gun knife or other weapon and never bark for indication as bombs some times explode on sounds some times ther might be a bloody piece of clothing. Someone in the group had access to human blood but there was a difference between human and animal blood . Each step of the way was worked on I was “ smart enough “ to carry a note book and wrote things down . My day job gave me a primitive voice recorder so that helped tooI found years ago that SAR groups are very “ hoyti toyti “ something like un touchable . I had already trained to SCH3 from puppy , at the time one of about 200 in the USA to do so and had a tracking title too. I was k 9 trainer at the time so working with really good dogs was not new. I offered a challenge of search and rescue theirs against mine with a bag of dog food to the winner. But essentially kicked out as my dog was also a certified K 9 patrol dog which meant he was certified to do anything K 9 dogs were authorized to do including search and rescue narc detection and criminal apprehension. He was never Beaten in tracking bets Needless to say he was well protection trained and had as good obedience as any AKC. Thing as a test we did an obedience test never practiced with perfect score. He was trained in 3 languages and could easily work with different handlers with a one word so called “ pass code”. So after the SAR asked us to leave we did and never went back sorry SAR. That’s what happened they did not like the deep nose tracking , they wanted “ movie” style wild woods barking ans running heater smelter until. The dog stumbled onto the person or object . I be offending but I tell it like it was. My dog was a once in a lifetime dog and to this day I’m proud of his accomplishments even with my own ineptitude.
un byI’ve been volunteering as a training assistant with a local canine SAR group. Recently, I’ve been asked to fill the role of support person in the field behind a handler during training sessions. I’ve been trying to pick up on the operational and communication protocols that a support person needs to understand to be competent in that role. I recently asked if there were any documents or instructional material that I could review to come up to speed on the support role. The response I received stated that the group does not have or need any documents of that sort because they are one of the best canine SAR groups in the state and they got that way by changing how they do things based on the circumstances at any given time. That seems to me to be a very tribal approach to learning and operational organization. My question: Is that approach typical for canine SAR groups and I simply need to learn to adapt from situation to situation? I hesitate to bring it up at a meeting and put myself at odds with the group leadership and culture.
some how I got cut off so I’m adding a bit more . An advantage I did have was the ability to get off work to travel to various seminars . None were as rough as this however. Force training does not work well on dogs . Actually not on humans either but that’s another day . Eventually in K 9 training I had to deal with a lawyer following my noting every detail that could get what ever we were training thrown out of court proceedings in criminal cases so I had to get used to these following along it was like a constant critique as you attempted to train. Almost all tracking we had to use a loose leash not guiding the dog ever only voice commands we even had to wear primitive shoulder mounted mikes over all it was not easy training there was so much to learn about events and creating then maintaining the dogs drives . Once again why you need a really good dog that’s well bred . Not some back yard hopeful. I really miss training today i regimes my Aussie with over 100 commands I don’t know how many my K 9 had but I’m sure it was more Obedience was so important . I didn’t catch on to this at first as nobody told or beat it into me. Even tracking using obedience in training could be helpful. There are some books available. If you have a library near by you could check them out before spending a lot on your own . There is really little information of value on line . You really need some one to guide you . Possibly convince someone to help then teach them what they need to help you with confusing but probably better than your experience so far . I don’t think I could get out in a field anymore stumping around with a cane in hand isn’t fun@Bentwings - Thank you for your response. It would seem that I simply need to adapt to a slightly different approach to training. I’ve worked with a few responder disciplines from Fire & Rescue to Wilderness Recovery. Each has had their unique vocabulary and inter-team protocols… most of which were either presented in various .pdf presentations or a ‘basics’ handbook of sorts. To encounter a group that sees no need to capture and codify their operations runs counter to any FEMA or Emergency Management training I’ve taken over the years. I guess the bottom line is that they have had notable success, so it’s hard to say that their approach is incorrect. I just suspect it’s going to take a little longer to learn the ropes than it might otherwise.
good luck on your endeavors
Te reading back again way back when I attempted to get involved with SAR it was obviously similar to politics you vs them . Once I got envilved with police K 9 things changed they were a fun group of guys each looking to refine their dogs and very receptive to making things work . A good example was a certification test it involved a dangerous apprehension I was the “ helper or bad guy “. On start I was to fire a couple shots in regard to “drop the weapon and surrender” upon firing 3-4 shots the officers dog went crazy barking and lunging . I stepped out and fired several more shot and declared FAIL. You and your dog are dead . There was immediate challenge demanding I didn’t follow rules. My reply was “ I’m a criminal “ criminals don’t follow rules how are you going to control a situation if you are trying to control your unruly dog . A bunch of words were exchanged but he calmed down and apologized. Then asked how do I fix thi? So we worked about 5-) months and fixed his dog issue . Bottom line was he had watched too many movies. We go to great length to prevent gunfire sensitive ness . There were several more issues because of movies I’m not the premier trainer but logic is a big part of training humans can be trained to act logically but dogs have their own rules governed by nature . I feel you have to really dig into dog behavior before you jump into undirected illogical training . Not many trainers apply this some are very good with dogs and poor with humans Getting a balance is really hard . As engineer I was taught to YHINK all the time about what I was doing . I’ve managed to get to old age with all body parts intact and only a few scars and no bullet holes . Keep thinking and trying . training your dog can be really fun . And useful . I wish I could help you more.some how I got cut off so I’m adding a bit more . An advantage I did have was the ability to get off work to travel to various seminars . None were as rough as this however. Force training does not work well on dogs . Actually not on humans either but that’s another day . Eventually in K 9 training I had to deal with a lawyer following my noting every detail that could get what ever we were training thrown out of court proceedings in criminal cases so I had to get used to these following along it was like a constant critique as you attempted to train. Almost all tracking we had to use a loose leash not guiding the dog ever only voice commands we even had to wear primitive shoulder mounted mikes over all it was not easy training there was so much to learn about events and creating then maintaining the dogs drives . Once again why you need a really good dog that’s well bred . Not some back yard hopeful. I really miss training today i regimes my Aussie with over 100 commands I don’t know how many my K 9 had but I’m sure it was more Obedience was so important . I didn’t catch on to this at first as nobody told or beat it into me. Even tracking using obedience in training could be helpful. There are some books available. If you have a library near by you could check them out before spending a lot on your own . There is really little information of value on line . You really need some one to guide you . Possibly convince someone to help then teach them what they need to help you with confusing but probably better than your experience so far . I don’t think I could get out in a field anymore stumping around with a cane in hand isn’t fun
good luck on your endeavors
I continue to consider you original post. As you can see I’m not popular with SARTe reading back again way back when I attempted to get involved with SAR it was obviously similar to politics you vs them . Once I got envilved with police K 9 things changed they were a fun group of guys each looking to refine their dogs and very receptive to making things work . A good example was a certification test it involved a dangerous apprehension I was the “ helper or bad guy “. On start I was to fire a couple shots in regard to “drop the weapon and surrender” upon firing 3-4 shots the officers dog went crazy barking and lunging . I stepped out and fired several more shot and declared FAIL. You and your dog are dead . There was immediate challenge demanding I didn’t follow rules. My reply was “ I’m a criminal “ criminals don’t follow rules how are you going to control a situation if you are trying to control your unruly dog . A bunch of words were exchanged but he calmed down and apologized. Then asked how do I fix thi? So we worked about 5-) months and fixed his dog issue . Bottom line was he had watched too many movies. We go to great length to prevent gunfire sensitive ness . There were several more issues because of movies I’m not the premier trainer but logic is a big part of training humans can be trained to act logically but dogs have their own rules governed by nature . I feel you have to really dig into dog behavior before you jump into undirected illogical training . Not many trainers apply this some are very good with dogs and poor with humans Getting a balance is really hard . As engineer I was taught to YHINK all the time about what I was doing . I’ve managed to get to old age with all body parts intact and only a few scars and no bullet holes . Keep thinking and trying . training your dog can be really fun . And useful . I wish I could help you more.
groups I’ve had brief contact with . Many difficult sports are hard to get into . If you really want to get into tracking I YHINK I’d contact every Schutzhund club and IPO CLUBin your area they have tracking in their sports some very advanced . More than likely they have contacts that give seminars and training .In my experience I found very few club members have any real knowledge on how to get started . Usually there is one or two who have got advanced titles . I don’t know for sure but I don’t see why as a person maybe not interested in most club activities . Especially protection. But if you made it clear that you want real training and maybe would enter a trial just for the tracking event. Sch and IO AD or top title is not easy . It involves cross track possibly crossing a road were it me training you would get very wet crossing a flooded stream or-swollen drainage ditch and wind rain snow every kind of weather except lightning Safte is important . When it’s 100 deg f out tracking is different Thant -15-20 below 0 . I had people come to me for training to teach dog to find kids in the woods. My note was I never ever let my kids freely run in the woods . At the time we lived in the south so about every dangerous thing that creeps crawls or slithers in or on the ground exist as well as spiders an other biting bugs skunks raccoons honey badgers and a few larger predators . Dogs messing with snakes can mean a very expensive trip to the vet Dogs learn about fire ants and bees but people never learn . Bottom line is I would think clubs would welcome a participant lid you could work on obedience training . Each of the 3 levels has a tracking test so you could show passing these few know the FH which is the optional most difficult . Outsiders have no idea what these are SKC has two tracking titles plus a scenting trial. While we were not really welcomed as K 9 team my dog made a joke out of all of the tests . I got into a heated discussion over delivery attempt at making us fail a track . My argument was that no other dog had the degree of difficulty yet we passed anyway I resigned from the dog club over this I didn’t care about the difficulty it was the inequality of the tests on other dogs ironically none passed the beginner test. Anyway politics aside it’s tough to get paperwork that SAR. Might consider all of my early trainers have passed away so I can’t recommend any . Good searching
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