[Tim Martens]

I love treats, I think the people who don't like training with treats either lack the patience to train motivationally so want to shortcut to compulsion, or they don't quite understand how using treats works in a dogs mind. A dog doesn't work for praise, they like praise, but they won't work for it. I dare you to take a dog and train them without a prong collar and without a reward, just praise. I compare it to going to work and your paycheck at the end of the month being a big hug from your boss.

There is no intelligent response to this remark.If you believe this then you just dont know dogs.

Greg

while i wouldn't quite put it that way.....there are many dogs that will work only for praise mike. perhaps not in the beginning during the instruction phase, but certainly once the desired behavior is learned, some dogs will do it for nothing but praise. i think maybe you were talking about the instruction phase mike?

the perfect example is the assistance dog. what motivates the dog to turn on the light, open the door, pick up the phone, etc.? do you think the person gives the dog a treat or plays ball with the dog EVERY time the dog does one of those tasks? either the dog would get grossly overweight very quickly or the disabled person would be tired of throwing a ball all day. for 90% of the tasks, a "good boy" and a pat on the head is all the dog gets and wants....

 

[Tim Martens]

the thing is mike, that is just ONE dog. it's great that you've found that food will give him that "pep" or enthusiastic energy, but there are dogs that will have that same pep from praise alone...

 

[Tim Martens]

.......it's great that you've found that food will give him that "pep" or enthusiastic energy, but there are dogs that will have that same pep from praise alone...

Can I have your opinions on this:

Wouldn't "pep" and enthusiastic energy be much easier to come by when the dog is in, say, prey drive, than when the dog is learning the basic manners commands?

that question isn't as easy to answer as it sounds. once again, i'm talking about once the dog already knows what is expected of them. once they know the proper position in the heel. once they know to down, etc. but assuming you are talking about the instructional phase, i'll go with that. the short answer is maybe. for a yes answer, you'd have to buy into the dog being able to connect the dots between desired behavior and "reward". with food, i think it's much easier for the dog to connect those dots. because it is immediate and short and the dog is not in "drive". if you have a dog that has very high prey/ball drive, the ball can actually be a distractor and work against you. with my dog, his heeling goes to hell if i try and use the old trick of keeping the ball up at my shoulder. he just bounces and tries to grab it. then i end up trying to correct that bouncing with leash corrections and it totally negates the point of "motivational" training. if i keep the ball hidden, then play after the exercize, it goes much better, but i still am not sure that he is making the connection that if "i do this exercize as....SCRATCH that. i re-read your question and have another answer...

of course when a dog is "in drive" it will have "pep", but you can't work a dog to do obedience in "prey drive" or you will have what i explained earlier. so the question becomes if you put your dog into drive afterwards, does he associate being put into drive as a reward for desired behavior? maybe. for some things, yes. a suspect search is an example of this. he knows that if he searches and finds the badguy, he is going to get a fight. for OB, which requires more concentration on the part of the dog, i'm not sure. i think the dots are connected much easier with food for this, plus you can continue with the exercize after one treat. with a ball, it takes more time to get the dog "out of drive" and focused on what he needs to do.

i guess the long and short of it, is some things work better for certain dogs than others. i hope that's as clear as mud for you...LOL :lol: