I use treats. The only way to go with a pup or young dog. After prey drive kicks in I use a tug toy.
I also use treats with an untrained adult (which is mainly what I have to work with), for the start of any training.Jerry Lyda said:I use treats. The only way to go with a pup or young dog. After prey drive kicks in I use a tug toy.
That says it all; excellent point.Patrick Murray said:......The bottom line is getting the dog to do what you want it to do. If it works and doesn't create a detriment for your purpose then I see no harm in it.
There is no intelligent response to this remark.If you believe this then you just dont know dogs.Mike Schoonbrood said:I love treats, I think the people who don't like training with treats either lack the patience to train motivationally so want to shortcut to compulsion, or they don't quite understand how using treats works in a dogs mind. A dog doesn't work for praise, they like praise, but they won't work for it. I dare you to take a dog and train them without a prong collar and without a reward, just praise. I compare it to going to work and your paycheck at the end of the month being a big hug from your boss.
while i wouldn't quite put it that way.....there are many dogs that will work only for praise mike. perhaps not in the beginning during the instruction phase, but certainly once the desired behavior is learned, some dogs will do it for nothing but praise. i think maybe you were talking about the instruction phase mike?Greg Long said:There is no intelligent response to this remark.If you believe this then you just dont know dogs.Mike Schoonbrood said:I love treats, I think the people who don't like training with treats either lack the patience to train motivationally so want to shortcut to compulsion, or they don't quite understand how using treats works in a dogs mind. A dog doesn't work for praise, they like praise, but they won't work for it. I dare you to take a dog and train them without a prong collar and without a reward, just praise. I compare it to going to work and your paycheck at the end of the month being a big hug from your boss.
Greg
For me, treats are for the instructional phase.Connie Sutherland said:......And yes, treats are PART of the program. (For me, an important part :lol: .)
Patrick Murray said:Sit, stay, come, etc. are basic manners that every dog needs to learn. I don't think I need to treat my dog for those things just as I wouldn't hand my kid a Hershey bar for sitting when asked. However, I don't think it is wrong to use some when first trying to teach a command in order to keep it positive. In fact I used little bits of hot dog in getting my puppies to learn the "come" command off leash (whereas before they were never off leash). It worked great. Eventually I think you need to wean out the hot dogs because, if it is a working dog, the dog should be obedient and come to you because it knows you are the boss. If that sounds harsh then so be it. Should I give my son, when he's 10, a candy bar every time I ask him to get up and come over and see me? Exactly.
You don't have to hand your kid a candy bar to treat him/her. The comparison also falls apart because the minds of dogs and children operate differently.
This all boils down to basic behavioral management. I'm sure we've all heard of the concept of punishment vs reinforcement (and that these can be positive or negative). Thnk B. F. Skinner. Reinforcement does just what it sounds: it reinforces a,behavior, makes it desirable. This is usually a reward of some kind. It can be positive, such in teh case of giving the dog a piece of food (you're adding something to the situation so its' "positive"). It can be negative, such as taking away something painful (i.e. stopping a prong correction for following a command); "negative" means you're removing something to reinforce the idea. Punishment seeks to erradicate a behavior. It can also be negative or positive. Positive punishment would be a leash correction after a command is not followed, or a spanking for a child. Negative punishment could be loss of a privilege, or walking away without giving the dog a treat.
So what's my point? Treating a dog and using the prong until the dog follows a command are both forms of reinforcement; it's just that one is positive and the other negative. Both will work...the problem is the spirit of the dog in question. I think we all agree that during initial training punishment is a bad thing (just as with small children). What works for one dog may not work for another, and it really depends on the trainer.
Personally I started Achilles out with treats and praise together as markers, and have since moved to his ball. We do use treats for new concepts, but getting to play a game of tug or retreive is award enough for him for things he already knows. At times praise also works -- he enjoys a good rub down! He is of course now corrected for failure to comply with commands he absolutely does know. It hasn't taken much -- heh responds well to corrections.
I have not used treats with Andi -- she is motivated by praise and attention from me and I've used it. So far she has learned come and sitz without much effort and understands the meaning of pfui and nein. She has also learned to heel by me refusing to walk unless she's at my left side. However, she's a soft dog so I have to watch it.
I see nothing wrong with using treats. You have to do what motivates YOUR dog. Most puppies have a high food drive, so I say do what works: food. I don't see any reason to make your life harder...FWIW, my children also work on a positive reinforcement system. They each have a list of expectations they know they havef to follow (chores, behavior). Following them earns points which are redeemed for rewards. Not following them results in losing points (fines(. Sometimes the rewards they want ARE food...
Boy, you clarified my own thinking very well!Stacia Porter said:........Treating a dog and using the prong until the dog follows a command are both forms of reinforcement; it's just that one is positive and the other negative. Both will work...the problem is the spirit of the dog in question. I think we all agree that during initial training punishment is a bad thing (just as with small children). .......
You have a point, dogs are not people or wolves, they are DOGS. You don't think the analogy is good but I think it has merit. However, we may agree to disagree.Stacia Porter said:You don't have to hand your kid a candy bar to treat him/her. The comparison also falls apart because the minds of dogs and children operate differently.
I didn't/don't either, I'm pretty sure. I did/do use them for strengthening the marker (again, in the instruction phase).Patrick Murray said:...... I didn't use treats as a crutch for establishing a bond and relationship with him. .......
Scenario 1: My dog will sit nicely and look at me, wagging her tail.walk into your house one day n just stand there in front of your dog n say nothing... what does your dog do? Mine will jump around a bit n walk away.
Now walk into the house again n hold up a piece of food, my dog will sit, shake paw, bark, n run thru his routine of commands till he gets the food.
That's my own goal: I want the dogs to love training and have fun. Treats, for me, enhance the marker at the beginning. (But for me, there's nothing wrong with treats, period. It's just that in the instruction phase, they're just solidly a part of that phase when I train.)Mike Schoonbrood said:.............I don't see a problem with food, you can proof a dog that is weened off food and still use food during training, everything I do with my dogs should be fun or it's pointless for me to do. ......
Excellent point! 8) Just like my hope and expectation that I have some "finishing" left to do on me! (OK, maybe "a lot of" instead of "some" :lol: :lol: .)Jerry Lyda said:Country logic- "You can catch more flies with honey"![]()
I use treats for puppies, toys later for young dogs and for the finished dogs I use praise and a good old banging in the ribs GOOD BOY
My question is, is any dog a finished dog? :wink: