[Jose Alberto Reanto]

Anyone here in a climate as drastic as mine? Or experience with transitioning a dog from very cold to very hot? We are having bizarre weather these days...it was 96 or 97 with high humidity today, but only a few weeks ago...well, this is Minnesota. The change is definitely affecting her.

Are there particular guidelines to follow (i.e., keep the intense exercise in morning and late night, offer water frequently) beyond the common sense stuff I would apply to myself? I think I'm doing everything right, I'm just not used to her panting for 20 or 30 minutes after a session...not much panting at all when it's -5 out at 5am. :lol: Not that I'm complaining.

And she's learning to swim, which is a blast, and raises hell with the urban kayakers on Minnehaha Creek. She scared one young kayaker into a tangle of roots and branches today...Annie was just paddling up to say hello, I guess the teeth can get misinterpreted.

Hello Woody:

I live in a tropical country, enjoying lots of sunshine mostly all year round.
Imported dogs blow their coats at the first month upon arrival, leaving only innercoats for the rest of their stay. They get acclimatized after 3-4 months. Surprisingly, local-born pups do have normal coats, some even lush.

We work dogs and pups the whole day during weekends, part of it doing long hikes on mountainous mostly rocky terrains. On summer months, the heat can be punishing, and I wear a good tan the entire summer. The pups/dogs get to drink when and where they see water. If our hike ends up in a body of water, they do get a swim. Otherwise they get a good spray from a water hose only after the hike. I don't see anything affecting them badly, nor do I need to go thru special diets. They just eat raw, that's it. Part of the day, they may go into bitework in those terrains and/or do mantracking, whatever a new place can be most suitable for. You see, we don't own a training field, so we go to different places and the work we agree to do (depends on the place) becomes the training itself, under whatever working conditions we get into.

After a long while of doing these starting with pups thru adults, I have yet to see a pup faint. My guess is for as long as they are in motion, they get cooled off. Bad is when kept inside vehicles on hot summer days.

Just my observation...

 

[Woody Taylor]

I am really not crazy - my undergrad degree, albiet from a LONG time ago, was biochemistry with an emphasis on lipid metabolism.

Nancy 1, Camel haters 0. Nice post Nancy! 8) You just totally outed yourself as a chem geek. ;-)

Imported dogs blow their coats at the first month upon arrival, leaving only innercoats for the rest of their stay. They get acclimatized after 3-4 months. Surprisingly, local-born pups do have normal coats, some even lush.

That is really interesting, Al.

What kinds of physical signs do you look for with your pups to ensure you're not over-working them? You work in different environments constantly...that's different from my situation, where I can play two-ball with Annie and notice her sprints starting to slow down, etc. and back it off a bit. What do you look for?

 

[Nancy Jocoy]

Woody, yes I am a displaced chemist doing non chemist work right now.
I would love to be sitting back at a GC-MS and be analyzing human and cadaver scent (I used to to environmental waste water testing).......ah well....can't afford to be a bench chemist any more / not and have dogs Maybe when I retire I can wheedle my way into part time at a forensics lab.....

Jose - but your basic raw diet probably meets a lot of the stated criteria beneficial for heat tolerance (high fat / low carb....)

Jeff - interesting study - adding fat to kibble -- but how much net protein is needed for good function? The Purina study stated 30-40% but it is hard to break down what is needed for endurance vs. what is needed for heat tolerance. If you add fat to kibble the protein % drops and from what Connie is saying better not too much protein due to heat produced in burning it and water needed to excrete excess nitrogen.

 

[Jose Alberto Reanto]

That is really interesting, Al.

What kinds of physical signs do you look for with your pups to ensure you're not over-working them? You work in different environments constantly...that's different from my situation, where I can play two-ball with Annie and notice her sprints starting to slow down, etc. and back it off a bit. What do you look for?

Obedience is always a part of whatever work we do, especially working on terrain. Dogs/pups are downstayed while their handlers negotiate steep terrains then follow when commanded, or the dog/pup may go first in case of an ascent, then downstayed waiting for their handlers. Can't risk a handler being tripped by his dog, that would be very dangerous. Hence you won't see a dog/pup do much sprinting. They slow down too.

If a pup slows down drastically wanting to rest, then he's lifted up the handler's shoulder and work resumes, though seldom do we see this. Normally, you'd see them more "interested" in the work than their handlers. :lol: :lol:

Best regards...

 

[Connie Sutherland]

.......Also, they need some of that grain I hear people go on, and on, and on, and on about. Just not all the time. Not just filler kids! .....

Many b.a.r.f. people (including moi) believe that dogs do best on a diet that includes close replication of the partially-digested contents of the prey's intestines/stomach.

No, I don't believe that dogs or wolves raided the wheat field and baked bread; I do believe that they (scavengers, remember!) evolved eating fallen produce, stomach contents, etc., except in times of extreme plenty.

JMO.

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

First thing a lot of these wild dogs eat is the stomach. Busted out the fox right after a visit to our chicken coop. He ate the stomach and the liver and the heart.

For what ever reason, at the time I expected the legs to be missing. Must have been the Colonels fault.

 

[Dan Reiter]

They eat the stomach contents first ??

I have always wondered who came up with this (always eat stomach contents first) I have never seen this on most game (birds & mice yes)
but not on larger game. I only see stomach contents being ate late in winter. I base this on both observing and hunting coyote, fox, & dear. I also use my GSD,s for tracking wounded bow & arrow dear for over 20 years and if we dont finish track until AM coyotes will be their first and gaurentee you the hind qaurters is where all effort is put. (I assume this is because most the meat (protein) and tallow (fat) is located.) I see the same thing in Canada with wolves they commonly check for road kill in evenings & night and if you check it out guts will be intact but hind end all chewed up. During are gun hunt the only thing I see being removed out of gut piles is the big organs never stomach contents they will lay around for weeks unless the grows eat it. Shot a nice turkey last year left out on porch while we shot a little pool and had a beer ( made the mistake of letting dog out the back door ) anyway I now had turkey feathers scattered in yard with my "Milo" snacking on the hind qauters as well. So I am going with they leave the stomach contents unless times are tough or their are youngsters involved. Any way "food" for thought.

 

[Sarah Hall]

With my research, it is true that many large predators go for the hindquarters first. From wolves to lions, the dominant animals seek the best part, which happends to be the hindquarters. True, the do eat the stomach, and the contents which gives them the variety of grasses and other nutrients they need, but that is usually later on when they go back to snack on the kill.
I do agree that dogs need some PLANTS in their diet, but I prefer natural grasses, herbs, and seeds instead of commercial grains. Also, however, the grain levels in commercial dog foods are much higher than the animal needs, and would recieve in the wild. Remember, wild dogs eat POUNDS of meat at a time, and that stomach matter is only a tiny amount of the nutrients they recieve.

 

[Woody Taylor]

With my research, it is true that many large predators go for the hindquarters first. From wolves to lions, the dominant animals seek the best part, which happends to be the hindquarters. True, the do eat the stomach, and the contents which gives them the variety of grasses and other nutrients they need, but that is usually later on when they go back to snack on the kill.
I do agree that dogs need some PLANTS in their diet, but I prefer natural grasses, herbs, and seeds instead of commercial grains. Also, however, the grain levels in commercial dog foods are much higher than the animal needs, and would recieve in the wild. Remember, wild dogs eat POUNDS of meat at a time, and that stomach matter is only a tiny amount of the nutrients they recieve.

What about all the plants dogs chew on? Dogs always seem to mouth/eat roughage...not just grass...my dog in particular loves chewing at leaves that grow on vegetation by our creek.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

With my research, it is true that many large predators go for the hindquarters first. From wolves to lions, the dominant animals seek the best part, which happends to be the hindquarters. True, the do eat the stomach, and the contents which gives them the variety of grasses and other nutrients they need, but that is usually later on when they go back to snack on the kill.
I do agree that dogs need some PLANTS in their diet, but I prefer natural grasses, herbs, and seeds instead of commercial grains. Also, however, the grain levels in commercial dog foods are much higher than the animal needs, and would recieve in the wild. Remember, wild dogs eat POUNDS of meat at a time, and that stomach matter is only a tiny amount of the nutrients they recieve.

What about all the plants dogs chew on? Dogs always seem to mouth/eat roughage...not just grass...my dog in particular loves chewing at leaves that grow on vegetation by our creek.

Yep, I agree. But again, as Sarah says, it's a tiny amount compared to the flesh and bone they consume. I too feed what I believe approximates the type and the amount of vegetation I believe would be consumed in the wild......... which is not much.

 

[Jose Alberto Reanto]

Yep, I agree. But again, as Sarah says, it's a tiny amount compared to the flesh and bone they consume. I too feed what I believe approximates the type and the amount of vegetation I believe would be consumed in the wild......... which is not much.

Connie, I learned that dogs don't have those enzymes that can digest vegetables, that it needs to be liquefied... How true is this?

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Yep, I agree. But again, as Sarah says, it's a tiny amount compared to the flesh and bone they consume. I too feed what I believe approximates the type and the amount of vegetation I believe would be consumed in the wild......... which is not much.

Connie, I learned that dogs don't have those enzymes that can digest vegetables, that it needs to be liquefied... How true is this?

Dogs do not have the salivary enzyme called amylase that would allow them to break down the tough outer cell walls of most produce (think broccoli). When they eat the contents of prey stomachs, they are eating partially-digested produce. Or if we crush/process/blend (and I believe cook) the produce, this simulates -- to some extent -- the processing that would be done in the prey animal's system.

But I subscribe to Sarah's preference for the greens they CAN digest for most of the produce I feed...... young shoots/and leafy greens. And I often steam even these.

My goal is to render the produce as close as I can get to partially-digested OR to what dogs/wolvces actually do eat on their own (the occasional greens and fallen fruit).

I feed the occasional ripe low-sugar fruits (like berries) because again, I believe they have evolved eating ripe fallen fruit in small amounts.

As far as grain-heavy foods go, I have serious misgivings. I subscribe to vet-college publications, and have read studies that indicate to me that the stress on the pancreas (etc.) from attempting to produce an abnormal amount of starch-processing enzymes might lead to organ derangement.

I believe that grain-heavy diets (Science Diet and the other pricier brands in the vet waiting room, with grains in first and second ingredient position) may be a factor in canine pancreatitis and pancreatic cancer.

I'm NOT referring to occasional grains like the amount in a liver treat or a Charlee Bear treat; I'm talking about daily feeding of mainly grains at every meal for life..... which is what too many dogs receive (imo).

This is all JMO. I'm not a medical professional.

 

[Nancy Jocoy]

Interesting - heat related - experience yesterday during a search.

I had upped my dogs' fat intake by adding 1/4 cup monounsaturated vegetable oil to their kibble for about a month - ok, yes I am feeding Purina ONE Sensitive Systems but they are doing quite well on it and it is one of the FEW kibbles without flax! It is 26% protein - They are maintaining weight well and coat is great. I know....Purina...but it works for us

http://www.purinaone.com/products_dog_ss.asp

Anyway - we were on the boat, over 90F, bright SC Sun from 1030am-12pm and Cyra, who is about as close to a bicolor as you can get and still be a blanket black with a black undercoat, was able to work without overheating. Her coat was very hot to touch. She was panting but not showing signs of excessive panting or stress. I think one thing that did help was we had a cooler with ice in the boat and she drank plenty of ice water. Back in the car it got to 100F even with the fan running - still no signs of stress. ... actually when it was down to 96, she was not even panting.

Got home after being in the heat from 9am-4pm and I crashed. She wanted to play.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Interesting - heat related - experience yesterday during a search.

I had upped my dogs' fat intake by adding 1/4 cup monounsaturated vegetable oil to their kibble for about a month - ok, yes I am feeding Purina ONE Sensitive Systems but they are doing quite well on it and it is one of the FEW kibbles without flax! ......

Nancy, I will try not to derail this thread about fat.

I'm curious about the flax comment.

I don't feed flax, but it's only because I have a couple of dogs with a bunch of allergies, and some dogs are allergic to flax.

Other than that, I would feed it (or flax oil) because it's such a rich source of Omega 3 EFAs.

Short-chain Omega 3s are from plant sources, and flax is a very abundant source. (Long-chain Omega 3s, which I think of as even more beneficial, come from ocean products; I like to supply both types.)

Are your dogs allergic to flax, or is there something else about it that makes you want to avoid it?

 

[Woody Taylor]

Interesting - heat related - experience yesterday during a search.

I had upped my dogs' fat intake by adding 1/4 cup monounsaturated vegetable oil to their kibble for about a month ...
Got home after being in the heat from 9am-4pm and I crashed. She wanted to play.

That is an interesting story. Just curious....1/4 cup of oil has around 400-500 calories in it, right? Did you back off calories or up activity to compensate? Exercise in warm weather should burn more calories...I know this is true in humans, I assumed the same in most mammals (as the body tries to regulate internal temperature, etc.)...but that's a substantial uptick in overall energy consumption.

Glad it's working out for you!

 

[Bob Scott]

Connie-anyone, other then weight problems, are there any bad effects of to much fat, and how much is to much?
Heat is the only thing that has ever stressed Thunder. He hates it!

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Connie-anyone, other then weight problems, are there any bad effects of to much fat, and how much is to much?
Heat is the only thing that has ever stressed Thunder. He hates it!

Commercial dog food often has restaurant grease as a big part of the fat content. This isn't the fat animals need. They need raw fat.

Since dogs/wolves will eat 30% or more of their diet in the form of fat, and since they appear to need fat for energy in much the same way that humans need carbs (JMO from reading various canine nutrition books and web sites), I think that weight management might be the only consideration when we supply *raw* fat (and oil) to dogs.

Sideline: People who are having trouble getting sufficient weight on their dogs because of an illness, say, and who are concerned about overdoing protein, calcium, etc. -- I'd suggest fat and oil, which, as Woody points out, are higher in calories than any other macronutrient (9 calories per gram as opposed to 4 or 5 for protein and carbs).

Adding oil and fat usually has to be sloooow because of the intestinal upset that can happen from a sudden increase.

All JMO!

 

[Bob Scott]

When I started adding the fish oil for the Omega 3, I also added the Vitamin E as per your comments. Would more E be necessary if the fat content is upped?

 

[Connie Sutherland]

When I started adding the fish oil for the Omega 3, I also added the Vitamin E as per your comments. Would more E be necessary if the fat content is upped?

I don't know. I know they use E to process oil, but I don't know about processing animal fat.

In the wild, dogs/wolves get a lot of E from stuff we don't generally feed (eyeballs, brains, leaves, etc.).

I'll find out.

 

[Bob Scott]

TIA! :wink: