[Connie Sutherland]

Anyone here in a climate as drastic as mine? Or experience with transitioning a dog from very cold to very hot? We are having bizarre weather these days...it was 96 or 97 with high humidity today, but only a few weeks ago...well, this is Minnesota. The change is definitely affecting her.......

One of my dogs is bracheocephalic, and those flat-faced dogs are really vulnerable to heat.

We keep a kiddy pool set up all the time at the club, and also at gatherings at houses, etc. Since I read that thing (I think it was OED Bob) posted on LB about not soaking the fur on the back, etc., but just the belly/groin area, we keep the water at a level where when they get in they are all in water just to their bellies. And we watch them carefully, leading them in if they don't do it on their own and seem to be heated.

We have another pool the same height (proportionately) for the big dogs (mainly GSDs)..... the water is deep enough just to wet their bellies. There's some variation, of course, with height, but there's no room for actual allover soaking.

And there are simple little things that can slip people's minds, too: Watch that there is always shade, no matter where the sun is. Don't forget the bowls of water outside as well as inside. After exercise, you can squirt the water into the mouth with a sports bottle and control the amount.

We have a big sun-reflecting canvas awning set up on the field at the club, at the side. It's as good as a big tree. Much better than regular awnings, IMO.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Add fat to their diet. Here is a link I hope. http://b2.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=1146249387&user=Frabo

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.

Essential fatty acids.........

Dogs need them for all the human reasons PLUS strictly canine reasons.

This is not really the thread for some of the reasons, but yes, metabolic water increase is generated by dietary fat. This IS the thread for that one.

P.S. This means increasing fat *as opposed to commercial foods,* and many people here already feed excellent raw diets with additional EFAs...... so please don't make nutritional adjustments without doing some reading....

....but YES. This is just one of the many reasons for all the discussion about commercial foods, most of which use cheap grains instead of higher-costing ingredients that the dog needs. Grains are generally extremely low in fat; many have no fat at all.

Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does. Fat can help level the calorie requirements of giant-breed pups who are not well-served by extra protein and especially not by fillers/starches/grains.

This is a big subject, one that comes up here and on other boards almost every time nutrition comes up...... and here's just one more aspect of it.

Good post, Jeff.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Quote:Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does......However, when fats in dog food turn rancid, they become simple sugars. Most of the preservatives in dog food listed on the bag only last about 25-30 days. Take into consideration how long they sit in warehouses before getting to the local petshop, and most of the time your thirty days is up.....I cannot believe I posted to a stupid nutrition post. How bored am I?? :twisted:

Not only does rancid fad becomes reduced in part to simple sugars -- it is also carcinogenic.

In many el cheapo foods, the fat is just reduced greatly (and using grains instead of meat does that very well), to a level below what a dog has evolved eating.

I don't know..... how bored ARE you? :lol: :lol:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

........Still cogitating on it - horses and dogs alleged to benefit - both cool very differently (sweating vs panting)....definitely would like to hear more on this...concerning the stamina and energy source of fats vs. carbs - that makes absolute sense .........

http://www.canineworkshop.com/nutrition/

http://www.doglogic.com/b2bfat.htm

http://b-naturals.com/May2003.php

http://www.sportsvet.com/Art3.html

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Also, a quote from #4 above:

....Burning fat is metabolically cooler than burning protein. Minimizing the increase in body temperature would be beneficial to dogs working in endurance events. This is especially true for dogs working in warmer environments. END

 

[Connie Sutherland]

...... what IS out there that meets the not too much protien yet high fat criteria that is affordable and not BARF. ........

THK has two no-grain formulae. When I use it (when I'm traveling or just have an empty freezer), I add RMBs and salmon oil.

In fact, I always add oil supplements for Omega 3 EFAs (plus the Vitamin E used by the canine system to process them).

I use plant sources for short-chain Omega 3 EFAs - flax, canola, etc. (unless there is a flax allergy, it's an excellent sourse) and marine sources for the extremely beneficial (IMO) long-chain Omega 3 EFAs, plus mixed tocopherols for the Vitamin E.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

.......Also, they need some of that grain I hear people go on, and on, and on, and on about. Just not all the time. Not just filler kids! .....

Many b.a.r.f. people (including moi) believe that dogs do best on a diet that includes close replication of the partially-digested contents of the prey's intestines/stomach.

No, I don't believe that dogs or wolves raided the wheat field and baked bread; I do believe that they (scavengers, remember!) evolved eating fallen produce, stomach contents, etc., except in times of extreme plenty.

JMO.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

With my research, it is true that many large predators go for the hindquarters first. From wolves to lions, the dominant animals seek the best part, which happends to be the hindquarters. True, the do eat the stomach, and the contents which gives them the variety of grasses and other nutrients they need, but that is usually later on when they go back to snack on the kill.
I do agree that dogs need some PLANTS in their diet, but I prefer natural grasses, herbs, and seeds instead of commercial grains. Also, however, the grain levels in commercial dog foods are much higher than the animal needs, and would recieve in the wild. Remember, wild dogs eat POUNDS of meat at a time, and that stomach matter is only a tiny amount of the nutrients they recieve.

What about all the plants dogs chew on? Dogs always seem to mouth/eat roughage...not just grass...my dog in particular loves chewing at leaves that grow on vegetation by our creek.

Yep, I agree. But again, as Sarah says, it's a tiny amount compared to the flesh and bone they consume. I too feed what I believe approximates the type and the amount of vegetation I believe would be consumed in the wild......... which is not much.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Yep, I agree. But again, as Sarah says, it's a tiny amount compared to the flesh and bone they consume. I too feed what I believe approximates the type and the amount of vegetation I believe would be consumed in the wild......... which is not much.

Connie, I learned that dogs don't have those enzymes that can digest vegetables, that it needs to be liquefied... How true is this?

Dogs do not have the salivary enzyme called amylase that would allow them to break down the tough outer cell walls of most produce (think broccoli). When they eat the contents of prey stomachs, they are eating partially-digested produce. Or if we crush/process/blend (and I believe cook) the produce, this simulates -- to some extent -- the processing that would be done in the prey animal's system.

But I subscribe to Sarah's preference for the greens they CAN digest for most of the produce I feed...... young shoots/and leafy greens. And I often steam even these.

My goal is to render the produce as close as I can get to partially-digested OR to what dogs/wolvces actually do eat on their own (the occasional greens and fallen fruit).

I feed the occasional ripe low-sugar fruits (like berries) because again, I believe they have evolved eating ripe fallen fruit in small amounts.

As far as grain-heavy foods go, I have serious misgivings. I subscribe to vet-college publications, and have read studies that indicate to me that the stress on the pancreas (etc.) from attempting to produce an abnormal amount of starch-processing enzymes might lead to organ derangement.

I believe that grain-heavy diets (Science Diet and the other pricier brands in the vet waiting room, with grains in first and second ingredient position) may be a factor in canine pancreatitis and pancreatic cancer.

I'm NOT referring to occasional grains like the amount in a liver treat or a Charlee Bear treat; I'm talking about daily feeding of mainly grains at every meal for life..... which is what too many dogs receive (imo).

This is all JMO. I'm not a medical professional.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Interesting - heat related - experience yesterday during a search.

I had upped my dogs' fat intake by adding 1/4 cup monounsaturated vegetable oil to their kibble for about a month - ok, yes I am feeding Purina ONE Sensitive Systems but they are doing quite well on it and it is one of the FEW kibbles without flax! ......

Nancy, I will try not to derail this thread about fat.

I'm curious about the flax comment.

I don't feed flax, but it's only because I have a couple of dogs with a bunch of allergies, and some dogs are allergic to flax.

Other than that, I would feed it (or flax oil) because it's such a rich source of Omega 3 EFAs.

Short-chain Omega 3s are from plant sources, and flax is a very abundant source. (Long-chain Omega 3s, which I think of as even more beneficial, come from ocean products; I like to supply both types.)

Are your dogs allergic to flax, or is there something else about it that makes you want to avoid it?

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Connie-anyone, other then weight problems, are there any bad effects of to much fat, and how much is to much?
Heat is the only thing that has ever stressed Thunder. He hates it!

Commercial dog food often has restaurant grease as a big part of the fat content. This isn't the fat animals need. They need raw fat.

Since dogs/wolves will eat 30% or more of their diet in the form of fat, and since they appear to need fat for energy in much the same way that humans need carbs (JMO from reading various canine nutrition books and web sites), I think that weight management might be the only consideration when we supply *raw* fat (and oil) to dogs.

Sideline: People who are having trouble getting sufficient weight on their dogs because of an illness, say, and who are concerned about overdoing protein, calcium, etc. -- I'd suggest fat and oil, which, as Woody points out, are higher in calories than any other macronutrient (9 calories per gram as opposed to 4 or 5 for protein and carbs).

Adding oil and fat usually has to be sloooow because of the intestinal upset that can happen from a sudden increase.

All JMO!

 

[Connie Sutherland]

When I started adding the fish oil for the Omega 3, I also added the Vitamin E as per your comments. Would more E be necessary if the fat content is upped?

I don't know. I know they use E to process oil, but I don't know about processing animal fat.

In the wild, dogs/wolves get a lot of E from stuff we don't generally feed (eyeballs, brains, leaves, etc.).

I'll find out.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

RE-flax one of my dogs is allergic and they get other sources of omega 3 that are fish based.

I did up it slowly and they are maintaining weight - I always adjust based on how they look so day to day there is some variation in overall amount of food. But they are both working reasonably hard this summer. Before I added the fat they were having some trouble maintaining weight without the stools getting soft when I added more food (they are already over the recommended amount). So I gather they are just burning that many calories.

Both dogs are nicely lean - you cant see the ribs, but they both have a depression between the hips and the ribs - Cyra is 55#, Grim is 70#.

Won't be around this weekend (training tonight, all day Saturday and half day Sunday) but I had before the thread felt they needed some more fat as coat was drier than I liked. Friend went with 30% protein for her working dog and it was too *rich* for her.

The fat in the food is 16% and I think for working up to around 25% is considered ok. I am giong to have to measure my little cup and see if it really is 1/4 cup or different - it is the scoop you get with protein powder- one of those - I was *guessing* 1/4 cup from the looks of it.

Everything I have read agrees with you that 25% fat is *well* within the evolutionary normal range, and that 30% and up is a likely ratio for a hard-working wild animal.

Canola oil is another good source of Omega 3s for those who don't want to give flax.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

When I started adding the fish oil for the Omega 3, I also added the Vitamin E as per your comments. Would more E be necessary if the fat content is upped?

Whoo! There was WAY more stuff out there about Vitamin E and dogs than I expected!

So .... I guess we've covered the basics, so this is a quicky background before the fat-plus-E stuff.

"Rust" from oxidation appears to be the basis of virtually all systemic disease, including aging, vascular heart disease, OA, cancer, etc. Antioxidants like selenium and vitamins E, A, and C help prevent this by stabilizing free radicals (which is interesting but long).

OK -- Vitamin E. Tocopherals are plentiful in many polyunsaturated oils (which without it would be particularly conducive to the formation of free radicals).

It's also highly concentrated in the fat of the animals the dog would eat.

BTW, in commercial foods, the fat is often rancid leftover restaurant frying fat, sprayed onto the food. Extremely bad. (There are "natural" foods with real animal fat preserved with tocopherols, too -- better.)

Vitamin E deficiencies in dogs (and cats) are common and well documented. There has not been a case of overdose, even at very high lab levels, even though it's an oil-soluble vitamin and the other oil-soluble vitamins can be overdosed pretty easily.

So what I took from all these papers was this:

Dogs need Vitamin E to process and protect the oils that provide the most Omega 3 EFAs (like salmon oil for long-chain Omega 3s and flax and canola, etc., for short-chain). They would get ample Vitamin E in good wild conditions from prey liver and fat, eyeballs, and brains, along with some leafy green material.

Bob's question: You probably do not need to add Vitamin E when increasing *raw* saturated fat (animal fat). But stick to the Vitamin E supplements to go with the Omega 3 oil supplements.

I asked my vet on the phone what she thought of this conclusion and her answer was (not exactly in this word) "Huh?"

So this is absolutely opinion only. I did read authoritative stuff to form it, though.