Working Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 44 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,973 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone here in a climate as drastic as mine? Or experience with transitioning a dog from very cold to very hot? We are having bizarre weather these days...it was 96 or 97 with high humidity today, but only a few weeks ago...well, this is Minnesota. The change is definitely affecting her.

Are there particular guidelines to follow (i.e., keep the intense exercise in morning and late night, offer water frequently) beyond the common sense stuff I would apply to myself? I think I'm doing everything right, I'm just not used to her panting for 20 or 30 minutes after a session...not much panting at all when it's -5 out at 5am. :lol: Not that I'm complaining.

And she's learning to swim, which is a blast, and raises hell with the urban kayakers on Minnehaha Creek. She scared one young kayaker into a tangle of roots and branches today...Annie was just paddling up to say hello, I guess the teeth can get misinterpreted. :D :eek:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,748 Posts
20 to 30 minutes is what I get down here for panting after a 20 minute high speed two ball session. Only a few times have a got a wheezy panting that I thought may have been too far.

I did get my most recent dog (Grim) from someone in Wisconsin in March and DID have to work on transition for him with a lot of undercoat removal and some intentional weight loss (about 5#) - spent about a month getting him really conditoned from winter in Wiscosnin to late spring in SC....and a LOT of time with an undercoat rake, plus clippering his underbelly a bit shorter.

Rinsing off the underbelly with cool water is a good thing but don't soak the coat if they are on land AND never put the dog in a plastic crate without a LOT of air moving over them. Keeping the air moving really helps cool down.

I have water available all the time but only offer a few sips after heavy excercise then wait until panting stops to offer any more. Have not had any problems -- not done sportwork with my dogs but Cyra has done a good bit of trailing and I have run mile + long trails in 90 degrees with high humidity -- but this is trailing not tracking and she gets into a rhythm so she is not nose on ground all the time....

Good she is swimming, that is great summer excercise!


I shoot for morning and evening excercise and leave alone the middle of the day as much as I can. I stop the dogs before they stop.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,869 Posts
Ditto with Nancy on keeping only the underbelly wet. this can be critical if the dog will spend a lot of time in the sun. Their coat is actuall an insulator against the sun. If the coat is wet to the skin, it transfers the heat right to the skin. That's especially rough on dark colored dogs.
It was in the mid 90's here today at the Terrier Races and Earth dog Trails at Purina Farms. Some of the earthdogs didn't want to come out, once they discovered how cool it was in there. LOL! The racers had it rough, but we kept plenty of cool water by the track for belly cool downs and short drinks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,973 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Bob Scott said:
Ditto with Nancy on keeping only the underbelly wet. this can be critical if the dog will spend a lot of time in the sun. Their coat is actuall an insulator against the sun. If the coat is wet to the skin, it transfers the heat right to the skin. That's especially rough on dark colored dogs.
It was in the mid 90's here today at the Terrier Races and Earth dog Trails at Purina Farms. Some of the earthdogs didn't want to come out, once they discovered how cool it was in there. LOL! The racers had it rough, but we kept plenty of cool water by the track for belly cool downs and short drinks.
Man, St. Louis. Why do people live there again? All of the nasty weather of Houston without the ocean? :lol:

Thanks for these suggestions, I'm open to whatever. Again, it may sound funny, but I'm just not used to labored panting like this. Even when she was breaking deep snow, she'd get tuckered out but none of this tongue-dragging-on-the-floor stuff. Wanted to make sure I wasn't working her too hard.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,869 Posts
The high drive dogs are especially prone to heat problems because of their never give up attitude. don't alow them to eat or drink heavily right before or afte strenious exercise. Just a bit. Let them cool down. Then they can quench their thirst without bloat worries
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts
Woody Taylor said:
Anyone here in a climate as drastic as mine? Or experience with transitioning a dog from very cold to very hot? We are having bizarre weather these days...it was 96 or 97 with high humidity today, but only a few weeks ago...well, this is Minnesota. The change is definitely affecting her.......
One of my dogs is bracheocephalic, and those flat-faced dogs are really vulnerable to heat.

We keep a kiddy pool set up all the time at the club, and also at gatherings at houses, etc. Since I read that thing (I think it was OED Bob) posted on LB about not soaking the fur on the back, etc., but just the belly/groin area, we keep the water at a level where when they get in they are all in water just to their bellies. And we watch them carefully, leading them in if they don't do it on their own and seem to be heated.

We have another pool the same height (proportionately) for the big dogs (mainly GSDs)..... the water is deep enough just to wet their bellies. There's some variation, of course, with height, but there's no room for actual allover soaking.

And there are simple little things that can slip people's minds, too: Watch that there is always shade, no matter where the sun is. Don't forget the bowls of water outside as well as inside. After exercise, you can squirt the water into the mouth with a sports bottle and control the amount.

We have a big sun-reflecting canvas awning set up on the field at the club, at the side. It's as good as a big tree. Much better than regular awnings, IMO.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,869 Posts
Interesting article Jeff. Thanks!
I've always added extra fat in the cold months. Never gave it a thought about doing the same in th heat.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts
Jeff Oehlsen said:
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.

Essential fatty acids.........

Dogs need them for all the human reasons PLUS strictly canine reasons.

This is not really the thread for some of the reasons, but yes, metabolic water increase is generated by dietary fat. This IS the thread for that one.

P.S. This means increasing fat *as opposed to commercial foods,* and many people here already feed excellent raw diets with additional EFAs...... so please don't make nutritional adjustments without doing some reading....

....but YES. This is just one of the many reasons for all the discussion about commercial foods, most of which use cheap grains instead of higher-costing ingredients that the dog needs. Grains are generally extremely low in fat; many have no fat at all.

Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does. Fat can help level the calorie requirements of giant-breed pups who are not well-served by extra protein and especially not by fillers/starches/grains.

This is a big subject, one that comes up here and on other boards almost every time nutrition comes up...... and here's just one more aspect of it.

Good post, Jeff.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
11,728 Posts
Quote:Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does.

However, when fats in dog food turn rancid, they become simple sugars. Most of the preservatives in dog food listed on the bag only last about 25-30 days. Take into consideration how long they sit in warehouses before getting to the local petshop, and most of the time your thirty days is up. This is the big reason so many people see a difference with a small, hard to get dog food company. You have a chance of getting the food before the fats go rancid.

I cannot believe I posted to a stupid nutrition post. How bored am I?? :eek: :twisted:



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,869 Posts
Jeff Oehlsen said:
Quote:Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does.

However, when fats in dog food turn rancid, they become simple sugars. Most of the preservatives in dog food listed on the bag only last about 25-30 days. Take into consideration how long they sit in warehouses before getting to the local petshop, and most of the time your thirty days is up. This is the big reason so many people see a difference with a small, hard to get dog food company. You have a chance of getting the food before the fats go rancid.

I cannot believe I posted to a stupid nutrition post. How bored am I?? :eek: :twisted:
If your trying to make us think your mellowing out, we ain't goin for it! :lol: :wink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,973 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Bob Scott said:
Jeff Oehlsen said:
Quote:Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does.

However, when fats in dog food turn rancid, they become simple sugars. Most of the preservatives in dog food listed on the bag only last about 25-30 days. Take into consideration how long they sit in warehouses before getting to the local petshop, and most of the time your thirty days is up. This is the big reason so many people see a difference with a small, hard to get dog food company. You have a chance of getting the food before the fats go rancid.

I cannot believe I posted to a stupid nutrition post. How bored am I?? :eek: :twisted:
If your trying to make us think your mellowing out, we ain't goin for it! :lol: :wink:
I'm a little shocked myself. :lol:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts
Jeff Oehlsen said:
Quote:Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does......However, when fats in dog food turn rancid, they become simple sugars. Most of the preservatives in dog food listed on the bag only last about 25-30 days. Take into consideration how long they sit in warehouses before getting to the local petshop, and most of the time your thirty days is up.....I cannot believe I posted to a stupid nutrition post. How bored am I?? :eek: :twisted:
Not only does rancid fad becomes reduced in part to simple sugars -- it is also carcinogenic.

In many el cheapo foods, the fat is just reduced greatly (and using grains instead of meat does that very well), to a level below what a dog has evolved eating.

I don't know..... how bored ARE you? :lol: :lol:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,748 Posts
I must admit the thing about dietary fat helping with hydration was news to me.

I am not discounting it - just trying to understand it as my understanding was that the breakdown of fat consumed more water than it produced. Is there more?

Any way I remember having this discussion in college years ago about the camel and found a related article..that does not support the argument about fat. NOTE Camels have different coping mechanisms including a wide variation in body tempature and incredible water conservation by other parts of the body.

http://camell.atlas.co.uk/cinfana.html

And another interesting article.

http://www.fao.org/Wairdocs/ILRI/x5525E/x5525e07.htm

Still cogitating on it - horses and dogs alleged to benefit - both cool very differently (sweating vs panting)....definitely would like to hear more on this...concerning the stamina and energy source of fats vs. carbs - that makes absolute sense .........
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts
Also, a quote from #4 above:

....Burning fat is metabolically cooler than burning protein. Minimizing the increase in body temperature would be beneficial to dogs working in endurance events. This is especially true for dogs working in warmer environments. END
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,748 Posts
Boy I hate pushing this one too far.

It really is interesting...particularly the Purina quotes referencin teh value of a 40% protein, 50% fat and 10% carb/other diet for performance dogs....

I know kibble was developed with a lot of carbs in part because it was required for the extrusion process .(and grains are cheap)....... and some better foods are baked - but what IS out there that meets the not too much protien yet high fat criteria that is affordable and not BARF.

I have fed BARF in the past and with everything else it is just not a workable option right now. One dog is allergic to chicken, the others are going all over the place with for SAR stuff and packing coolers gets to be old, not to mention the time investment etc. .......

Not making a switch right now for my two working but it is intriguing.....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,210 Posts
Nancy Jocoy said:
...... what IS out there that meets the not too much protien yet high fat criteria that is affordable and not BARF. ........
THK has two no-grain formulae. When I use it (when I'm traveling or just have an empty freezer), I add RMBs and salmon oil.

In fact, I always add oil supplements for Omega 3 EFAs (plus the Vitamin E used by the canine system to process them).

I use plant sources for short-chain Omega 3 EFAs - flax, canola, etc. (unless there is a flax allergy, it's an excellent sourse) and marine sources for the extremely beneficial (IMO) long-chain Omega 3 EFAs, plus mixed tocopherols for the Vitamin E.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
11,728 Posts
Quote:One dog is allergic to chicken,

GOOD GOD. :eek:

The camel theory is killing me. I nearly peed my pants laughing. :lol: No offense, but how does a camel have anything to do with a dog? Why would that cross your mind?

I worked in a research facility that fed dogs different diets and then at different ages, did the whole, lets chop them up and see what improvements we made thing.

It was interesting to see what occured from these studys. The biggest thing we found about feeding raw was that the fats were not cooked and thus made the dog look and act better (more energy) You could basically feed kibble and add raw fat and get the same results. ( we did!) The other thing is that the heat needed to make the food crunchy enough to clean the teeth destroyed a lot of the protien. Also, they need some of that grain I hear people go on, and on, and on, and on about. Just not all the time. Not just filler kids! That nasty beet pulp that everyone likes to go on, and on, about is a breath freshener as well as having things they need to keep the digestive tract moving.

I found that the best dogs do really well on shit food. I am always doing something with them, so I don't have a lot of the guilt I found associated with the high end foods and raw diets. Hell the raw diet is like a religion to so many people. If only they knew........... :p :p :p :p

I see a lot of people feed their dogs old roy here at the kennel. I see a lot of REALLY OLD dogs fed this food. They look great! Then I think back to the old days when I was always tryin to get the better deal.

I feed black gold dog food. If I get it fresh, which I do often, man the dogs get crazy. 20 bucks a bag.(50lbs) If it is a little old, I am good, mostly 'cause of the craziness of the previous bag(s) :D



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,748 Posts
Jeff Oehlsen said:
Quote:One dog is allergic to chicken,

GOOD GOD. :eek:

The camel theory is killing me. I nearly peed my pants laughing. :lol: No offense, but how does a camel have anything to do with a dog? Why would that cross your mind?
In the days when I was taught biochemistry, the understood metabolic pathways for the breakdown of fats, carbs, and protiens were believed to go through the same chemical reactions for all animals using oxygen for respiration. I don't think that has really changed.

That is, it takes more water to break down fat than is obtained from it. IT really does. The argument that the camel gets it water from the fat was debunked back then - I can't find that has been changed. THe camel has a unique physiology in that it recovers most of its waste water by really concentrating its urine, having a wide body temperature range, and having a low stool volume while not eating.....so that is why I was puzzled and would like to understand what is going on.

I do understand that there is less heat produced burning the fat and less waste water so there are efficiencies to gained there that will help during times of heat stress. The low pro high fat would make sense during hot water - I just don't think there is a net gain of water from the fat, rather less of a loss.

It seems to me that while a high pro high fat diet may work for endurance in cold that the lower protein higher fat could serve real value in the heat for heat tolerance. Dogs can't concentrate urine like a camel but it makes sense that not burining protein or carbs for fuel would result in water conservation and lower heat production.

Also, clearly there are some tweaks in the metabolic pathways.. Humans NEED carbs to efficiently burn fat (as opposed to inefficiently as in Atkins) wheras dogs apparently don't .......

I am really not crazy - my undergrad degree, albiet from a LONG time ago, was biochemistry with an emphasis on lipid metabolism. That does not mean I have kept up with it. We cut out trans fats from our diet as much as possible back in 1977 as my professor explained their behavior in cell membranes and the lack of a human metabolic pathway to digest the trans bond !
 
1 - 20 of 44 Posts
Top