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Jeff...you're finally coming around. You can see the light! I helped to sway opinions a bit, so if you get attendees, I'll take a small commission. :lol:
 

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Jeff Oehlsen said:
I use the table to promote fight drive. All dogs have it, but only Tim and I can see it. Soooo, to schedule your seminar with us, (min 5 days) go ahead and pm me. Also have your credit card ready. For additional $$$ I can bring Edit* Santa Clause.
no, no, no. you've got it all wrong. very few dogs have it. only we can see it. the only dog around here that has it is mine. want to buy a puppy from him? only $1500....
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I was just curious about various people's methods, but if we'd rather talk about your newfound calling, that's fine too. :twisted: :roll:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The thing is I am merely concerned in getting the dog 'too equipment oriented' so I'd like to see what other people do before we do any actual work, sort of to educate myself before I jump in there and end up going to someone who'll do something stupid to him. I am hoping to be able to do PP with him, but because I also do obedience schutzhund routines I do drive work using Bernhard Flinks' method (through the video). He is very uhh--shall we say too drivey towards the item to the point that he'll shut down if it's so much as just lying there in the field. I have been working on desentisizing him with that by just pulling the tug out, dropping it in the field, and walking around and doing other stuff, but it's hard to keep his concentration during this time. I don't really know how he'll act otherwise, though he's barked a couple of times at people who've stared at him too long even though he's normally a quiet, not-so-barky type dog.

...he also chases after pine cones and rocks, so I'm REALLY concerned he'll end up becoming this type of dog. :oops:
 

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Well, first of all, there is no such thing as only "prey" work. Dogs slip in and out of drives according to what THEY are feeling at the time.

I am assuming that you are doing PP. At 11 months you should be working on his OB so that he has it down really well.

In the "old" days I wouldn't do bitework with a PP dog till 18 mo, but I worked the dog behind a fence, or at a distance at dusk, with the dog always winning. The fence allows more pressure. I kept at this until the dog was really confidant that he could kick the crap out of me.

Then, at 18 months after lots of work chasing off the bad guy, I would work the dog down the fence and then PRESTO there is no more fence and the dog gets a bite.



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Equipment orientation - In my Opinion - happens when a) dogs see the equipment as the only cue for biting, or b) more commonly, when the equipment is the prize.

So...here go some unpopular techniques...that help in preventing your dog from becoming equipment oriented:

For a)
1) Have the decoy agitate in prey if you wish, and then chase the decoy away without the decoy wearing any equipment. You don't need to go into defense with this, specially if you have a high prey dog. There's more stuff with this that's pretty useful...but it's long and can't be described. It can only be seen by Jeff and Tim...and only if they're given advance notice. :lol:
2) Do night work with a threatening decoy...at a distance...and get the aggression on cue. Have the decoy move closer and closer as the dog gains confidence.
3) NEVER use a sleeve for training; use only suits.
4) Teach the dog about opposition, and that opposition comes from the man.
5) The dog ONLY wins via the decoy running away, or falling to the ground and/or remaining passive.

and for b)
1) NEVER feed a sleeve as a prize.
2) Never have your dog parade around with a sleeve in his mouth.

Also, in protection...you must not remain in a dog's comfort zone too long, as it is wastes time. When you train for protection, push the dog a tiny bit EVERY time. If you don't reach obstacles, you will not ovecome them.

So the basic concept for not making your dog equipment dependent, is to teach the dog that the "fun" really is on the man, not the equipment, and that victory is as it is in the canine world: The adversary either submits or runs away.
 

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My dog is very equipment (sleeve) oriented right now, but he's only been biting for a month or two total, so it's still very new to him. He hasn't really been worked in defense yet (he's just 13 months old), and he has been allowed to win the sleeve and parade around with it in his mouth - er....rather, thrash it around as I try to get him to run back to the crate with it. :roll:

Last weekend, the guys threw all the sleeves and ect. around on the ground, and tried to get him to focus more on the decoy, but he was confused and basically ran back and forth barking at the stuff laying around on the ground around him, with the occasional bark at the man.

Lastnight, they decided to see what he would do with the suit. He's never bitten anything but a sleeve, but he had absolutely NO problem watching the decoy AND biting the suit. No hesitation at all.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, use whatever you want to start out with, whether it be a sleeve or a suit or whatever, and then you can transition to the suit and/or no equipment at all as the dog matures and learns. Once you start doing defensive work with him, he'll start to view the man more and more as the thing to be watching rather than the sleeve. 11 months of age is still a puppy. Some already have good defensive drive at that age, and others (like Jak) do not.

Just my newbie $0.02
 

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My trainer has trained many police dogs who have excellent street bite records and does 2 things that contradict what Andres said... 1) He uses sleeves for all the grip work until the dog is ready for suit and muzzle work, 2) Dogs win the sleeve as a prize and carry it.

There is lots of civil agitation when we work dogs, we'll toss the sleeve in one direction n continue to agitate the dog, if the dog chases after the sleeve then sting the dog in the butt with a whip n he'll quickly realize that the man is where his focus needs to be... it doesn't take more than 3 minutes to make a dog realize this, provided you have done civil work with the dog from the beginning. People get very weary of doing "defensive work" with a puppy, but if a dogs temprement can handle it, throw in some "challenges" while doing prey work, very quick, maybe 1 or 2 seconds, you're not threatening to kill the dog, but you're building a foundation to get the dog focused on the man later in their work. We have some very nice dogs at training who, if you were to slip the sleeve, they will spit the sleeve and come back at you... then we have other dogs who you can slip the sleeve and they will run around happily with it in their mouth, but they have bitten people for real.

My general philsophy is "there's more than one way to skin a cat"... dogs can see a bite suit as equipment too, but they never learn a proper grip if all they do is suit work... some people will argue that grip is only important for sport.... I agree with this to a certain extent, but a dog nipping at the end of the suit instead of jamming their mouth over the whole arm is gonna end up biting a suspects jeans or t-shirt in a real life apprehension, the full or 2/3 mouth bite is important to make sure someone really gets bitten, a dog hanging onto clothing is as useless as not having a dog.

Whatever works for you or your trainer is fine, but I wouldn't say there is only one way to do it, because it's been proven time and time again that there's more than one way :) Some dogs are just equipment oriented, they seek comfort in the equipment and don't understand the concept of biting a real person, other dogs have no problem transitioning from sleeve work to civil work and couldn't care less what they bite, as long as they bite something.
 

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I agree with agitating the dog and then chasing after the quarry repeating the exercise a few times before rewarding with a bite. We did this exercise with great results in the military. This worked for several of our equipment orientated MWD's.
I disagree about the suit. The suit is as addictive as a sleeve if not more. I have instructed at several PSD seminars over many years and have observed several dogs just as uncontrolled with the suit on as a visible sleeve.
I have always started my PSD's with the sleeve first, and once holding firmly and taking a challenge I then proceed to other methods, concealed sleeve, body suit, muzzle. I still believe in doing civil drive exercises to keep them profiient on the quarry not only for manwork but upon finding the quarry while searching also.
 
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