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When people say that 'oh, that dog just thinks its a game', why is this necessarily bad? Just by looking at some dogs, the ones that have the reputation of being 'strong' don't necessarily look like they think the decoy or helper is out to kill them...they almost look like they're playing. I always figured it's the weak dog that has to be the most vocal, to have the scariest bark, look the 'toughest'. While the strong dog, sure, can just think it's all play, but you can see him looking the helper in the eye daring him to get the game on. Input?
 

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I think it is a heck of alot easier to train a dog for sports to high scores that does realize it is all just a game and does not have that "edge". Nothin wrong with it, IMHO, as long as the owner realizes that a dog looking and acting tough in a bark and hold in the blind does not equate necessarily to a dog that is a "serious dog". Sports is just a game. Most stable dogs figure this out pretty quickly. As for looking into the eyes of the helper or decoy, I personally don't consider that as an indicator in itself that a sport dog is more serious then one that does not. With enough repetiton, it's fairly easy for even a weaker dog to figure out that the helper/decoy is really posing no serious threat to him.
 

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I can say that the male that I had would play the 'game' with the best of them....but just push that envelope that little bit further & he was 'in it for real'. He was ready, willing & able to put a 'real' hurting on the decoy. He was they type of dog that meant it real time but would play the game also. Some of the posters here saw this dog work under a great deal of pressure, gunfire etc & he never flinched or would back down no matter what you dished out to him. He made that eye contact witht he decoy & meant it as a challenge to him......bring it on. The tougher & harder the decoy fought the more he liked it & met it in kind. He truly was the 'real thing'.

Edited to say.....not been lurking....just not been around much lately.....just working too many hours these days & not enough time for too much else other than my dogs. Hi to all...miss being able to be here much these days.
 

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A balanced dog knows that training isn't real. They're not stupid. The dogs who don't understand that are nervey overly defensive dogs that are that extra step closer to avoidance. Rah rah rah look at my teeth I'm a big badass dog kinda behavior. Once you call the dogs bluff they shut down and start avoiding. Training is nothing more than sparring -- trial/sport is nothing more than a karate championship. The dog still knows it's not real, he's done the same stuff 1000 times before. A good, tough, serious yet balanced dog will always know training is training, but just like a kid in Karate class, if his sparring partner starts to be a jerk, the dog will be a jerk right back. A 100% prey dog will shut down when he reaches his prey threshold, unbalanced toward prey so doesn't understand how to deal with defense. Can look nice in sport, but it is all 100% game to him and he won't push harder when the decoy pushes him harder.
 

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WOW lots of interesting things here.

I guess I should start from the beginning. Dog thinks it's a game. Giving a dog too much credit with a hypothesis based on anthropomorphisation.

Your "balanced" dog is half in prey, and half afraid. So are you sure this is a good way of putting things????

A high scoring dog is more willing to go along with your rediculous requests, not necessarily the dog that gets "the game". A dog that goes along in the bitework will not get good points. ( well shouldn't )

Karate???? C'mon, that is some weak explanations, and completely silly when it comes to dogs. Like they think about stuff, they are pretty much just dogs. Like they can really figure all this out. They have a conditioned response to a trigger. Duuuuuuh. : )

100% prey.......I think I have went over this before, but lets say that somehow we have this rediculous impenatrable threshold for defense. Is there still only "prey" involved??? is defense the only other variable in this equation??? If a dog is 100% prey, but dominant, wouldn't that cause the dog to try and punk you? Why would defense cause a dog to look you in the eye??? Silly rabbits. Defense is not what gets that dog to stare at you and dig in to the suit to make you squeal. It is dominance.

God you guys need to start thinking on your own. I demand that you go and train a dog completely on your own before spouting this weirdo stuff.

My God, next I will have to hear about "power" in heeling again.

Dorks LOL



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Its all terminology and I hate terminology. You say Dominance I say Defense, but when I work the dog, I will read the dog correctly regardless of what I choose to call it.

As for Karate, its not about what the dog "thinks" its about how you can make people understand a way to view it, otherwise you get all the Baden monkies thinking that's the way to go.
 

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A balanced dog knows that training isn't real. They're not stupid.... Rah rah rah look at my teeth I'm a big badass dog kinda behavior. Once you call the dogs bluff they shut down and start avoiding.
Mike~
Hey. I just wanted to weigh in on this while I had access to a computer. I agree with you that most balanced dogs are not stupid and know that training isn't real. I do disagree in part on the "Rah rah rah look at my teeth, I'm a big bad ass dog kinda behavior" and "Once you call the dogs bluff they shut down and start avoiding." In regards to the first part, I think that the "Rah rah rah" stuff is case sensitive. Being on the edge of an all out ass kickin' and being on the edge of avoidance and an all out nervous break down are two entirely different things. In regards to the second part, you will undoubtedly shut down and force the weak and unbalanced dog into avoidance when you call it's bluff, but you will be hard pressed to obtain the same results from the true, serious, civil, and yet strong nerved "badd ass dog". Now, this is probably just semantics and you were probably refering to the truly weak and unbalanced dog, but I just wanted to voice my opinion. By the way, It is my understanding that this is your board and I just wanted to thank you for providing this forum. I really enjoy the board when I get a chance to view it. Take care. ~Justin

Jeff ~ BADEN is real, I was there a few times. The training area was amazing. The training was in a word... "Different", (live fire just inches overhead, that sort of thing... a little intense) but all in all it was an enjoyable experience and the people there were very good to me and my buddy who went with me. The philosophy has some merit, but I don't prescribe to most of it.
 

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Agreed Justin. But even with the 2 dogs you described there are clear differences in body language that seperate the true badass dog and the overly defensive dog ;) Both the mother and father of my new pups show teeth, but their body language and bark shows you they aren't sissies. Then there's other dogs who show teeth, have kind of a hunched up body language, eyes look away, among other things that tell you the dog will avoid. But you know that already obviously ;)
 

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Jeff ~ BADEN is real, I was there a few times. The training area was amazing. The training was in a word... "Different", (live fire just inches overhead, that sort of thing... a little intense) but all in all it was an enjoyable experience and the people there were very good to me and my buddy who went with me. The philosophy has some merit, but I don't prescribe to most of it.
I think just about any dog of any breed can be trained to disregard gunfire and smoke.

Live/blank or rubber, it's just another sudden loud noise.

Why is baden always referred to in caps ?? maybe it has something to do with the philosophy. They are a broker.
 

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Due to Justin's pc situation and not having one he asked me to to reply for him. Justin said, "I am not endorsing Baden k9 nor am I debating the ability to condition dogs to gunfire,smoke, fire,water or ice. Such conditioning is elementary I capitalized Baden because that is how it is on the website and thats the only reason. As far as Baden being a broker is concerned i saw no evidence of that while i was there. If that is the case i have no knowledge of this. When i mentioned the gunfire overhead I was referring to my head and my buddy's head ... that's all."
 

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I didn't mean anything personal towards Justin, The site in question just seems to keep you going in circles whatever you try to find out about them or their dogs.

Yes, the "live" gunfire would leave more of an impression on a vistor than the dogs I'm sure.

Maybe the OPP uses some of these dogs, but nobody west of Ontario that I'm aware of. Maybe it's different in the USA.
 
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