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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
One of the local SchH clubs hosted a seminar by David Landau on the AKC's newly accepted Working Dog Sport. Essentialy the format and rules are word for word translated from the VDH rulebook. In typical AKC style, each event does have specifications for catalog size and content, color of rosettes (orange) plus lots of paperwork/forms and tighter deadlines.

At this point the events have to be hosted by the parent clubs (breed club) and each club is limited to five a year. The parent clubs can "delegate" the responsibility to hosting a trial to local clubs.

In my experience the standard for judging in AKC obedience is higher than other similar programs (UKC, AMBOR) and their agility courses are tight and tough compared to most other agility organizations so I am confident a high standard for judging will be continued (of course, anyone who attends local club trials knows this might not be very high.)

One of my concerns was our sport being put in the spotlight (to avoid becoming a HSUS or PETA target) but the are the AKC events that only permit entry of a few breeds (beagle field trials, basset field trials, coonhound events etc.) are sort of "hidden". Besides how bad can SchH seem compared to torturing and killing litle rabbits and birds?

Some have expressed concerns about the AKC watering down breeds but I disagree. It is breeders who choose to base their breeding decisions on traits that do not directly effect working ability (like little ears) who water down breeds. If you have ever been to a retriever field trial or a beagle field trial etc. you know that the dogs competing there are nothing like the big boned, overweight versions of their breed that are drug around the show ring. Most working/herding/sporting breeds have two distinct types: show and working. The GSD, Malinois, Labrador Retriever, beagles, **** hounds, english setters, english pointers, border collies, parson russels...just to name a few

Our "parent club" ABMC has not yet decided to request being a oart of the WDS. I for one am on a mission to get the BM on the accepted breeds list.

So I am curious about how others feel about the AKC's new program.

Hopefully, this will be an engaging topic!

Lisa

PS The best part of the program is getting to see working titles on AKC pedigrees. This program has me seriously thinking about tracking so I can title/retitle my dogs. During the programs probationary period, dogs with SchH titles from other organizations can begin competing in the WDS at the level they are titled to.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'm afraid it will fall into the same "baby the show dog" routine that you see in the SV show, protection routines. Pathetic!
Yes, but every local SchH trial I have attended is like this. Even a few of the Regional events. When you see a dog trotting along in the heeling like it is taking a walk in the park with its owner and then hear the judge call it attentive and spirited in the critique you just have to remember why we have the big National events...to get real scores on our real dogs. There is no tougher test for retrievers than AKC's field trial program. The retrieves and blinds are far longer than any realistic hunting scenario.

In truth, I imagine the AKC will stay out of way. They just want a chunk of the revenue other SchH programs are bringing in. They hide it under the guise of "allowing breed clubs to decide what events are appropriate breed suitablility tests for their breed" but bottom line, the AKC is a money making business (more power to 'em).

Besides how much more water down can SchH get at the local level...let them bite a throw pillow then hit them with a feather duster...it can't get much worse than it is.

Lisa
 

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I think it's awesome. ANYTHING is a step in the right direction. I don't personally care whether the titles are on the dog's pedigree, but I think this will do more to help the public perception of protection sports in the US than hurt it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I think it's awesome. ANYTHING is a step in the right direction. I don't personally care whether the titles are on the dog's pedigree, but I think this will do more to help the public perception of protection sports in the US than hurt it.
I am a title collector :smile: I just can't get enough of them!

The other positive is that it will draw others to protection sports just as Rally Obedience has drawn people to AKC obedience. If local clubs send invitations out to the "show" clubs and breeders of their breed inviting them to try the BH (even going so far as hosting a seminar several weeks prior to the trial to show handlers what is required of them and the dog) no doubt it will spark an interest in the sport in some of them. Not to mention that whan we do come under the line of fire we are going to need a lot of support by the dog owning population in general. The protection sport community is just too small to fight legislation itself.

In the WDS program the BH is called the TT. Of the four breed clubs currently participating (German Shepherd, Rottweiler, Bouvier and Dobermann) only the German Shepherd has a breed specific temperament test (called the TC). I can envision the BH becoming a popular goal for show breeders who otherwise would give little thought to temperament tests. Okay, so we all know the BH/TT is a pretty pitiful temperament test but it is surely better than nothing.

Lisa
 

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If to many of the ASS dogs get ran off the field, either from poor training or crappy genetics the show people will start hollering that the helpers are being to heavy handed on the dogs.
I saw that last year at the SV Nationals at Purina Farms last fall. Our club BH dogs take more pressure then I saw there.
Off the 150 plus dog that were entered, I doubt there were 10 that I would have taken home. Not knowing the dogs, I wont hazzard a guess as to wether it was training or genetics but these were SchIII dogs for the most part.
I do like the idea of AKC having a WDS. I'm just old and cynical about the outcome. ;)
 

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I'm with you Bob.
Granted, have a general dis-taste of the AKC to begin with.
I am very , very much against the AKC having ANY interest in protection sports. When an organization is percieved to be the final authority in purebred dogs, as the AKC is, steps into any realm they will have influence in how the general public percieves it. While many are thrilled that it will allow protection sports to be painted in a less gloomy light than they are currently generally thought of, I personally think it will be disasterous to the working dog.
 

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So how the heck do we start getting judges that can critique a performance correctly?

I remember the judge in AKC obedience let nothing go, and was pretty nice about it when I was a kid.

How do we get this back into dogsports?? I have seen way to many pronounced curs to have any faith in this assesment.

I am hopeful that like OB back when I was a kid, that this sport will get us some young people interested in dogsport.

The trick is to get them away from the sleeve sports as quickly as possible, before they start thinking that bared teeth is a sign of power. LOL



 

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Also, what will be the outcome when a bunch of nervy show dogs start getting bite training, possibly poor bite training?
Yes, "nervy show dogs" is a generalization but it's been my observation.
I showed in the breed ring for 10-12 yrs. No GSDs though.
 

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So how the heck do we start getting judges that can critique a performance correctly?

I remember the judge in AKC obedience let nothing go, and was pretty nice about it when I was a kid.

How do we get this back into dogsports?? I have seen way to many pronounced curs to have any faith in this assesment.

I am hopeful that like OB back when I was a kid, that this sport will get us some young people interested in dogsport.

The trick is to get them away from the sleeve sports as quickly as possible, before they start thinking that bared teeth is a sign of power. LOL
I put a CD on my GSD last year and will do the CDX this year. They actually are still pretty good in the obedience ring. A bit anal about perfect position, but still fun.
 

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If we start seeing more of these nervy dogs getting bite training, then I think one of two things will happen.

1, Most likely, they will lose interest, as it is not good to show what a peice of crap you have bred.

2, Less likely, they will reconsider their programs, and start breeding stronger dogs.

Since it is unlikely that they train now, they are probably just under a lot of misconceptions.

I can honestly say that I doubt that any of the bigtime people will actually train their dogs at all, unless there is a benefit/advantage in the show ring.



 

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well, at least with the dobes, I think what will end up happening is this - the show people want the schH titles, but realize their dogs don't cut it -

so they go and buy euro working lines, bring them home and mix them with american show lines, and produce a slightly less worthless dog. ;)

at this point, really anything is a step in the right direction.
 

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At the AKC SV show most of the "big time" dogs are purchased for HUGE dollars, already titled.
NOW, the question is, how many of these "titled dogs" are legit but the training is only followed through enough to pass the ridiculous SV protection routine, and how many are cheap titles.
Again I don't know the dogs well enough to say for sure but the big time breeders will start buying titles.
I always hear about the clubs in Europe that put the quick and dirty titles on show dogs. How much is true? How much will the ASS dogs follow suit?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Also, what will be the outcome when a bunch of nervy show dogs start getting bite training, possibly poor bite training?
Yes, "nervy show dogs" is a generalization but it's been my observation.
I showed in the breed ring for 10-12 yrs. No GSDs though.
If it is done well little harm will come to the dogs...you can't break what is already broken. If the clubs are nice and encourage the handler to learn with their dog and they enjoy the sport...then we might convince them to buy a working dog instead thus growing the sport and teaching one more person about the importance a selecting a dog for more than looks.

Lisa
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
At the AKC SV show most of the "big time" dogs are purchased for HUGE dollars, already titled.
NOW, the question is, how many of these "titled dogs" are legit but the training is only followed through enough to pass the ridiculous SV protection routine, and how many are cheap titles.
Again I don't know the dogs well enough to say for sure but the big time breeders will start buying titles.
I always hear about the clubs in Europe that put the quick and dirty titles on show dogs. How much is true? How much will the ASS dogs follow suit?

Sorry but there is just not enough money in working dogs to "buy" titles. Show dogs yes, in the AKC you can pay a top handler 2-5 grand a month to campaign your dog and even a POS will finish its championship. German show dogs must have a working title to compete afor the VA title at the sieger show or to qualify for pink papers. Like I said there is money in show dogs so you will see folks buying titles. Bottom line no one gets rich selling working dogs (other than those who advertise in the Robb Report selling elite family guardians for 10-50 grand but you don't even have to fake a title for that uninformed population).

Lisa
 

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The basic problem with show people is economics. When the little ****ers just have to prance in a ring, then you can show 5 or 10.

These people won't even put basic OB titles onthe dogs, as there is no $$$ in it.

One of the reasons they were able to destroy the GSD so quickly was the amount of litters that many of them have every year, and the way they responded so quickly to the judges whims on what a GSD should look like.

At 2500 a pup, they are not gonna change. It will be the Sch people who go and get another title, not show people, not in the long run.



 

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If it is done well little harm will come to the dogs...you can't break what is already broken. If the clubs are nice and encourage the handler to learn with their dog and they enjoy the sport...then we might convince them to buy a working dog instead thus growing the sport and teaching one more person about the importance a selecting a dog for more than looks.

Lisa
I can only cross my gnarly old fingers and hope! ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
If we start seeing more of these nervy dogs getting bite training, then I think one of two things will happen.

1, Most likely, they will lose interest, as it is not good to show what a peice of crap you have bred.

2, Less likely, they will reconsider their programs, and start breeding stronger dogs.

Since it is unlikely that they train now, they are probably just under a lot of misconceptions.

I can honestly say that I doubt that any of the bigtime people will actually train their dogs at all, unless there is a benefit/advantage in the show ring.
I would agree with you on large/successful show kennels being unlikely to dabble in the WDS. But surely you have seen many people who love their dog and are blind to or tolerant of his faults? I know folks that have been members of clubs for years and never titled a dog but contribute much to the club itself.

Lisa
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
The basic problem with show people is economics. When the little ****ers just have to prance in a ring, then you can show 5 or 10.

These people won't even put basic OB titles onthe dogs, as there is no $$$ in it.

One of the reasons they were able to destroy the GSD so quickly was the amount of litters that many of them have every year, and the way they responded so quickly to the judges whims on what a GSD should look like.

At 2500 a pup, they are not gonna change. It will be the Sch people who go and get another title, not show people, not in the long run.
Do you really think they "ruined" the GSD? There seem to be plenty of good working dogs in the breed. They have changed the breed but where else is aperson who wants a pet GSD going to get one? When I get a call from someone who wants a pet Malinois or one to do just agility or obedience with I send them to one of several show breeders I know of that breed dogs with nice temperament and a more dilute version of working drive.

Lisa
 

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Most of these people were never hard core show people.

Unless there is a bigtime commitment from the working people to take in these new people, it will end up just being the title hunters that compete.

I would like to see this promote more young people, but of all things they had to pick weak ass Sch as the sport to emulate???? Yuck.



 
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