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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know this subject has been 'bout done to death on other forums, but thought I would bring up this topic. For those that do Schutzhund, how to you go about teaching article indication? Clicker, corrections, intro to the track with articles, size of articles, number, and so on?

For those that may cross train, have you ever found it to interfere with food refusal, such as in Ring?

My girl is moving FAST with tracking, so I want to have the article thing straight in my head so I can start it in the next couple of weeks. I'm pretty sure I will use marker training, then proof with distractions, all off the track, then go from there, but I'm curious about other's approaches.

Thanks!
 

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I don't do schutzhund, however we do indicate on articles when we track. We simply work on a sit once the article is located. We do it the old fashioned way, when the article is located, the dog is commanded to sit. In our line of work, the article can't be disturbed so the sit is preferred. Some do use down, I just find sit easier.

DFrost
 

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Same as David.
Having done "real" work (evidence recovery) and sport (schutzhund) the one difference is, in schutzhund, I want the dog to stay on the track, facing the aritcle. That makes the restart much easier. In evidence recovery, position isn't near as important as keeping the evidence from being disturbed. Some dogs will turn to see both the handler and the evidence.
Train the articles as a totally separate exercise until the tracking and alert are both excellent. They'll go together quite easily then.
I do articles up close to the dog. That makes it much easier to keep the dog from turning around and looking at you. Add distance as the dog understands the exercise.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I see the difference between the sport application and the work application. But they are both a kind of passive alert, correct? Just with the sport stuff, well, there is a degree of 'form' that is desired.

For me, I want her to genuinely search for the article on the track; a 'cue' for a reward, but it is the reward, and a blending of pack and hunt behaviours.

Yes, I plan on polishing tracking and alerting before bringing them together. Just curious about others practicle approaches.

Do you all find that it is difficult to change to an active alert, or once passive always passive?

I have tried to edit this before submiting, but the cursor is cannibizing the text!
 

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JMHO, but changing the alert is no biggie.
My dog was initially trained in SAR with a dsown and bark. I did this with the salt shaker method. Food reward in one hand, article in the other
When I started doing retrieving with the dumbell. I used the same saltshaker method. Food in one hand, dumbell in the other. Initially, he wanted to just bark at the dumbell. It was just a matter of waiting him out for a "touch" instead of a bark.
I know this isn't tracking, but an example of changing the alert.
I might add that I used different commands for the different articles and alerts.
His cadaver alert is a down and bark. His article alert on a Sch track is down and wait. He picked up the difference reasonable quick.
 

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melissa mims said:
I see the difference between the sport application and the work application. But they are both a kind of passive alert, correct? Just with the sport stuff, well, there is a degree of 'form' that is desired.

For me, I want her to genuinely search for the article on the track; a 'cue' for a reward, but it is the reward, and a blending of pack and hunt behaviours.

Yes, I plan on polishing tracking and alerting before bringing them together. Just curious about others practicle approaches.

Do you all find that it is difficult to change to an active alert, or once passive always passive?

I have tried to edit this before submiting, but the cursor is cannibizing the text!
To me an article search and a track are 2 seperate excercises.I only want my dog genuinely searching for the article during the article search.
On the track the dog is tracking and if they happen upon an article with the scent on it then they will alert passively.

Why would you want an aggressive alert?Unless you just mean barking.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the resposes, guys!

Bob, I figured changing the alert wouldn't be a problem....with an experienced handler :) . And I also use a different command for the article and tracking, or at least I plan to.

Greg, I don't want an active on the track, I was just curious about anyone who did detection work with an active and cross trained in Sch, whether the two types of alerts are initially confusing to the dog. I would imagine the context makes it clear, again, with an experienced handler.

To me an article search and a track are 2 seperate excercises.
Could you explain this a little please? I always thought that the end goal was to have the dog searching for articles on the track. I understand in SAR and detection work the search behaviours are not as important, it is the find, not the method (ie., FST vs airscent, circling, etc). Just curious about your approach :)

I understand the difference while in training, tho.

Thanks!
 

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If I was tracking a target, the command would be track or seek.If I was doing an article search then I would give a "search" command.
You can do a grid type of search for finding articles.The alert would most likely be the same as finding an article on the track but I believe the dog knows the difference between tracking to find a person and searching to find an article that the person dropped.
Im no expert though.

Greg
 

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With ours we can do an article search, which is different from a track. We can also track, but if there is an article on the track, the dog will respond. They are, in our program anyway, two different tasks.

DFrost
 

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As the majority of my tracks are hot pursuit (10 minutes) or less at times, it is imperitive that I find the bad guy(s) before he can break containment. Therefore I never train article recovery during tracking. I want my partners mind to be thinking one thing only, catch that guy! After locating the quarry or not, I simply back track and have my partner quarter the area for any discarded items. I track off the lead so I am at a fast jog most of the application and would most likely skip over the items anyways.
Another exercise I do almost every session is after my partner locates the bad guy during bite exercise, I have the quarry discard an item while fighting and after putting him inside a vehicle I have the dog locate the item tossed during the fight, I should note this is done at night so the dog does not see the item being tossed. I believe this conditions him to expect to find something even though he is still excited after the fight. So even doing aggression work I make him finish with scent work. As soon as I direct him to fetch he goes right to work with little or no voice correction. necessary.
 

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I use both a passive and active alert on the same dog but they are triggered by the behavior cue. In tracking I first teach the dog the "find it"
(behavior search off lead) by presenting an odor in plastic bag such as food then another hidden once the dog understands find means locate odor that was presented he is moved to learning human scent discrimination and a active alert such as (barking at find). I use socks for this (want dog to learn foot wear and human odor related to feet). The dog is also conditioned to a handler cue such as the word " yes" for correct behavior during this phase. Once the dog is proficient at locating the presented odor he is ready for learning a passive alert on track. I teach the down on article first by taking out wallet setting a short distance away directing dog to and commanding platz the minute he downs he hears the "yes" and is rewarded. Once he is auto down on wallet we start tracking. He is conditioned to the start by always being downed at start and a finger point to track with the cue "such" (behavior on lead follow track lay down on find). By teaching the scent discrimination first before tracking allows hard surface and transistions to be trained quite easily and with greater reliability. A normal training track for myself would typically have several articles and on the last article I turn dog loose with "find it" the article at end elevated or in some form of cover that he can see but not access and he barks till I arrive or I eject with remote controll device or at times the tracklayer is last article and rewards with toy after barking. I do schutzhund, akc, and bow & arrow deer recovery all with same dog. Schutzhund tracking I consider easiest most clubs looking for those Ideal conditions. I am not high scorer in points however I prefer reliability (always pass or score high in trial when conditions are tough). The down on article during tracking is best all around you can teach the sit but it wont last most will down from trying to get close to odor source anyway.

Dan Reiter
 
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