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Once they get away from toys, they'll be just like the personal protection people who know "their dog will bite." The sleeve is a toy to the dog. The suit is too. proofing gets the dog ready and the guy in the suit or sleeve. A sport guy said it well on here recently. There is only one way to see if they really bite...


If you want to post a video of a trained dog biting, I'lI show you the reward or lack of it if the dog isn't doing well.

Why do you want to make a dog work for nothing?

Dave you have a habit of preaching your opinion as if it is fact?
You’re saying a dog that really wants to fight man is doing so in hopes of playing with a ball or toy afterwards? Really? They dogs you are speaking of are going from one toy (a sleeve) to another.
I guess the sleeve and suit can be viewed as a toy if used and viewed as a toy in training. I would question any dog that someone is comfortable working in a sleeve as being street dog? A dog that wants a bite and fight will spit that sleeve out and re target a less protected area. Do your really think they don’t know if they are doing damage? Have you never seen a dog crank down on its mouth in a thin suit and then make eye contact to see your reaction and move on to another spot and do the same?
Many will say a dog that retargets has week nerves for some silly reason but I really think it there are justifiable reasons to retarget. A dog that fights a sleeve without retargeting is a dog that is fighting a sleeve or yes a toy. A dog that is really fighting with the man, or really thinks it is will not or should not hold on to a sleeve. If the dog does hold onto the sleeve it does think it’s a toy and the whole bite work thing is just a fun game. A dog that wants to fight the person will spit out the sleeve and retarget it will also retarget on the suit looking for a way in or to do damage somehow. If not its all just a game and the sleeve and suit are toys.
As far as working for nothing? If done right dogs simply cant help themselves or stop wanting to work. No toy needed. If other is needed maybe its poor genetics or training?
JMO
 

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Chris.

How do you train a dog to sit?
 

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Dave you have a habit of preaching your opinion as if it is fact?
You’re saying a dog that really wants to fight man is doing so in hopes of playing with a ball or toy afterwards? Really? They dogs you are speaking of are going from one toy (a sleeve) to another.
I guess the sleeve and suit can be viewed as a toy if used and viewed as a toy in training. I would question any dog that someone is comfortable working in a sleeve as being street dog? A dog that wants a bite and fight will spit that sleeve out and re target a less protected area. Do your really think they don’t know if they are doing damage? Have you never seen a dog crank down on its mouth in a thin suit and then make eye contact to see your reaction and move on to another spot and do the same?
Many will say a dog that retargets has week nerves for some silly reason but I really think it there are justifiable reasons to retarget. A dog that fights a sleeve without retargeting is a dog that is fighting a sleeve or yes a toy. A dog that is really fighting with the man, or really thinks it is will not or should not hold on to a sleeve. If the dog does hold onto the sleeve it does think it’s a toy and the whole bite work thing is just a fun game. A dog that wants to fight the person will spit out the sleeve and retarget it will also retarget on the suit looking for a way in or to do damage somehow. If not its all just a game and the sleeve and suit are toys.
As far as working for nothing? If done right dogs simply cant help themselves or stop wanting to work. No toy needed. If other is needed maybe its poor genetics or training?
JMO


Just a question for you....do you really beleive that a dog re-targets or re-grips cause it thinks it will do more damage?

Have you ever had a dog spit a sleeve, then re-target another sleeve or go civil? What are you training/teaching? What is the dog thinking? - Just curious
 

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Just a question for you....do you really beleive that a dog re-targets or re-grips cause it thinks it will do more damage?
Yes, I absolutely do believe it, not all dogs. Depending on the training, yes this is definitive for me.

Have you ever had a dog spit a sleeve, then re-target another sleeve or go civil?
Ah, ya? I dont think its really hard to believe?

What are you training/teaching?
Some crazy Canadian vodo stuff that no one is allowed to speak of on the internet… its along boring story that has been beat to death on the internet. I really don’t consider myself a full blown dog trainer/ teacher level kind of guy. Im a bit more of a hobby kind of dog person, I really want to spend more time on scent work and man tracking in the future.

What is the dog thinking? - Just curious
Got me?, I ask but never get an answer. \\:D/
 

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Let's just say you use correction some escape training and praise. Do you have to use correction, praise or escape training for the dogs whole life to get the dog to sit?


The whole Canadian voodoo method. Same as I said in the other post if your not familiar, its been beat to death on this site in a few places. im not going that way again. Yes there are some corrections, no kongs, toys, treats etc.
 

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I have for sure seen what Chris is talking about in a very rare few dogs.

I think it depends on the dog, as much or more than it does the training.

The times I have seen this was usually with adult dogs that enter into training, usually dogs that were just nasty dogs to begin with.

Dogs that had a base of minimal training, and definately did not view the helper interaction as a game or a contest, but dogs that took the work very personally and very seriously, and were not as comfortable and secure in their mindset, in thinking that are "safe" in the work. but not dogs that were weak or lacking in courage if that makes any sense.

I worked with one dog in particular that I truly believe would have killed someone if allowed to. The dog was 5 when starting bitework, almost from the first day the dog did full committed kamikaze sends center mass on the suit, and the suit was not a prey item to the dog, it was viewed initially by the dog as part of the man. Over a short period of time the dog "I think" certainly started to see the suit as a hinderance to what she was trying to accomplish.

I am sure many people have had dogs try to go around the sleeve and get dirty with them, happens quite often. I also am sure that many people have had dogs try to hunt around and nose up under that jacket for instance in suit work.

some of this can surely be looked at as dogs looking for softer areas to bite, for sure, but some for sure I think anyhow in my head can be attributed to a dog that intends to do harm, that realizes the equipment is something that is protecting the man.

have seen this type of thing in less experienced dogs, dogs that do not have secure targeting work, and also were just plain nasty.

same thing as a dog fighting an animal, and retargeting more effective areas to gain better control, do more damage or kill.

one dog comes to mind that was sent out to bite or outed from a sleeve would fairly often drop down and attempt to grab your balls, pants and cup required..

seriously no one here has has a dog come straight at them and try to chew their balls off before? one that you needed to use the sleeve to block the dog as it tried to get to your stomach or crotch?

I cant be the the only one, I know I am not, I have seen quite a few dogs do this before to quite a few others.



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Let's just say you use correction some escape training and praise. Do you have to use correction, praise or escape training for the dogs whole life to get the dog to sit?
I understand where our going with this question and it’s a yes / no answer. To explain the yes, you can reach a plateau of stress where your dog is fairly reliable… some can consider this a fully trained “done” dog needing very minimal communication via corrections or whatever. But I don’t believe there to be such a thing as "done". You simply need to take the dog and handler to the next level and have it all fall to shit. I think you would agree that you can take your best trained/ obedient dog and you and your dog can be put through scenarios that make you fall all apart?
I still don’t see your point, I see is circle talking, baffling attempts with bull shit, mixed in with trying to get others to believe they are not capable of fully comprehending your level? You going somewhere with this?
 

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bottom line in my mind if the dog is decent, likes to hunt, and has some bitework in him that he enjoys, teaching searching for suspects should be fairly simple for the most part, the basics anyhow.

and I still think the barking/scratching is mostly a natural response from a good quality determined dog, unless quelled through training.

and if not, should be easy to encourage.

like rolling a ball or putting whatever under a milk crate. I have yet to see a good dog not get frustrated as hell..barring a different trained Final Response.



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My only point was that if you train a dog, you don't always have to do what you do initially. Why is it hard to believe that a dog can't learn to recall on a toy and then later on not need it?

I think Howard. Is trying to get this back on track...



I understand where our going with this question and it’s a yes / no answer. To explain the yes, you can reach a plateau of stress where your dog is fairly reliable… some can consider this a fully trained “done” dog needing very minimal communication via corrections or whatever. But I don’t believe there to be such a thing as "done". You simply need to take the dog and handler to the next level and have it all fall to shit. I think you would agree that you can take your best trained/ obedient dog and you and your dog can be put through scenarios that make you fall all apart?
I still don’t see your point, I see is circle talking, baffling attempts with bull shit, mixed in with trying to get others to believe they are not capable of fully comprehending your level? You going somewhere with this?
 

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My only point was that if you train a dog, you don't always have to do what you do initially. Why is it hard to believe that a dog can't learn to recall on a toy and then later on not need it?

I think Howard. Is trying to get this back on track...
I know you're addressing Chris here but :).....I don't have a problem training certain aspects of PSDs with toys, I just choose to omit the toys once the dog knows the exercise. I'm also very selective in when I use them. Now, I know that the OP was talking about a green dog learning the building search but I don't use toys in the building search. There's no need to...ever IMO. You can teach the building search without the toy from day one so why introduce the toy in the first place? I guess you could make the comparison toy=suit or sleeve but personally I don't see it that way. We could assume that biting equipment equals toy and I'm sure there are some dogs that might see it that way but I'm sure there are others that do not as Joby posted above. We can never know because the dog can't tell us verbally....body language-wise, maybe.
 

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I agree with you, Howard. You know from talking with me i don't use toys either on a building search.. I still don't see a problem with it. I do have a problem with never and wont. Training with a reward in mind is what it's all about though. Having a dog that finds it rewarding to bite a man is iimportant.biting a man can be developed and trained so being able to train with a dog that hasn't fully developed that skill yet makes sense. To get a dog to repeat a search or do it well, they have to find it rewarding. I don't think there is any other way to do it. You can say treat and bribe etc all you want it's why dogs do things. If you look at your training, I am sure you'll find what the dog finds rewarding..
I know you're addressing Chris here but :).....I don't have a problem training certain aspects of PSDs with toys, I just choose to omit the toys once the dog knows the exercise. I'm also very selective in when I use them. Now, I know that the OP was talking about a green dog learning the building search but I don't use toys in the building search. There's no need to...ever IMO. You can teach the building search without the toy from day one so why introduce the toy in the first place? I guess you could make the comparison toy=suit or sleeve but personally I don't see it that way. We could assume that biting equipment equals toy and I'm sure there are some dogs that might see it that way but I'm sure there are others that do not as Joby posted above. We can never know because the dog can't tell us verbally....body language-wise, maybe.
 

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If you look at your training, I am sure you'll find what the dog finds rewarding..
We do. And every one of them loves to play ball. But, we don't do that when doing man work because it's not a game. I know you agree with that....And I agree that toys can be used in man work but choose not to.:) It's just a preference with a good argument. So we agree on some things and disagree in principle on others. It's all good.

Spoke to my Cmdr today..I know you know what I was thinking. LOL
 

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Some of that was written for chris. My point though is you have dogs that like to bite men. Doing a building search and biting a man is a rewaRd For the dog. It's like a "bribe" chris mentions. Just like food or a toy given AFTER a behavior performed correctly. A reward. Just like not giving a bite to that same dog makes them work harder on the next Bldg search.
We do. And every one of them loves to play ball. But, we don't do that when doing man work because it's not a game. I know you agree with that....And I agree that toys can be used in man work but choose not to.:) It's just a preference with a good argument. So we agree on some things and disagree in principle on others. It's all good.

Spoke to my Cmdr today..I know you know what I was thinking. LOL
 
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