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Of course a sleeve and a suit are just like a toy. Trying to get some self realization from Howard. Also that tracking is following residual odor that leads to a bite just like the op talked about....

I have trained it much like you do. proofing comes towards the end. I haven't done much searching in muzzle. To me it's all still equipment. It at least changes the context one more time for the dog. Something overlooked in building searches is guys with no equipment. Not saying everyone misses it, but I know I didn't do it as much as I should have in the military. No equipment. Find. Either no (variable reward) bite or short escape to a bite.

Good to hear all police haven't gotten away from "toys and food".


I have a little bit of a different philosophy on toy rewards with the building search. (Experienced dog) In my mind the bite sleeve and bite suit are prey items the same as a tug toy or ball... so I see no difference in their use. Doing the search in muzzle or hidden sleeve...different story.

That said.. I like to teach BS initially with run aways into the building with bite rewards. Then the doors get closed and the dog will need to learn through self discovery that the sniff under the door will open it and earn him a bite reward. Eventually we work the bark into the equation.
 

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Dave what are you trying to get at here? Do you not think a dog can be trained without the crutch of toy/ food? I don’t understand your point?

And why is good to hear all police haven’t gotten away from toys and food? To many there use is the easy, quick way to get a so-so dog to work? Wondering what your getting at?
 

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Once they get away from toys, they'll be just like the personal protection people who know "their dog will bite." The sleeve is a toy to the dog. The suit is too. proofing gets the dog ready and the guy in the suit or sleeve. A sport guy said it well on here recently. There is only one way to see if they really bite...


If you want to post a video of a trained dog biting, I'lI show you the reward or lack of it if the dog isn't doing well.

Why do you want to make a dog work for nothing?

Dave what are you trying to get at here? Do you not think a dog can be trained without the crutch of toy/ food? I don’t understand your point?

And why is good to hear all police haven’t gotten away from toys and food? To many there use is the easy, quick way to get a so-so dog to work? Wondering what your getting at?
 

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I have a little bit of a different philosophy on toy rewards with the building search. (Experienced dog) In my mind the bite sleeve and bite suit are prey items the same as a tug toy or ball... so I see no difference in their use. Doing the search in muzzle or hidden sleeve...different story.

That said.. I like to teach BS initially with run aways into the building with bite rewards. Then the doors get closed and the dog will need to learn through self discovery that the sniff under the door will open it and earn him a bite reward. Eventually we work the bark into the equation.
Does the dog really consider a sleeve and a suit as a toy? I very rarely use sleeves anymore as well...only on a dog that hasn't learned what a suit is. Once they know the suit the sleeve goes away. Lots of our training is in muzzle and we proof off of equipment all the time. We've all seen the videos of dogs chasing bad guys looking for a sleeve. That said...equipment is essential for decoy safety and there's no getting around it. Toys in bite work are not on the same level as bite equipment IMO. We also teach the BS much like you.
 

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Once they get away from toys, they'll be just like the personal protection people who know "their dog will bite." The sleeve is a toy to the dog. The suit is too. proofing gets the dog ready and the guy in the suit or sleeve. A sport guy said it well on here recently. There is only one way to see if they really bite...
Well, unfortunately that sport guy won't have the opportunity to test his methods with a violent criminal intent to harm him or the dog. It's easy to sit back and make that statement...actually doing it is something else. The statement may be true but those that have done it know the feeling of failure or success when the chance happens. And, if you have to fail, you only want to fail once. You do everything you can to not let it happen again.


If you want to post a video of a trained dog biting, I'lI show you the reward or lack of it if the dog isn't doing well.

Why do you want to make a dog work for nothing?
First off...why do you think the dog is working for nothing? The clicker crowd might think we should do it their way too.](*,)

I'm going to try and find a real life video of a K9 deployment that shows the problem. The dog is obviously trained with a toy in man work. Prime example of what I'm talking about. It's from a different forum and there's a huge thread on it but it's members only. I'll try and get the video link.

Found it...."Warning"-Graphic Content.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8aa_1395460451
 

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Good video. Can you post what the handler obviously told you? I don't see what you see.

I am sure you train this scenario, right? Flash bang/distraction, dropped bag, send?


Well, unfortunately that sport guy won't have the opportunity to test his methods with a violent criminal intent to harm him or the dog. It's easy to sit back and make that statement...actually doing it is something else. The statement may be true but those that have done it know the feeling of failure or success when the chance happens. And, if you have to fail, you only want to fail once. You do everything you can to not let it happen again.


First off...why do you think the dog is working for nothing? The clicker crowd might think we should do it their way too.](*,)

I'm going to try and find a real life video of a K9 deployment that shows the problem. The dog is obviously trained with a toy in man work. Prime example of what I'm talking about. It's from a different forum and there's a huge thread on it but it's members only. I'll try and get the video link.

Found it...."Warning"-Graphic Content.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8aa_1395460451
 

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Good video. Can you post what the handler obviously told you? I don't see what you see.
Don't know the handler. Have never spoken to him. The dogs reactions belie the training. The original thread where this topic is discussed on another forum is 7 pages long. If you'd like to sign up to read it then I'll send you a PM with the link. It is an eye opener. The thread is still open if you have any questions after reading it.

I am sure you train this scenario, right? Flash bang/distraction, dropped bag, send?
Well, of course.\\:D/ On July 4th we took a guy down who threatened someone with a shotgun. Multiple bean bag rounds, Tasers and screaming SWAT guys were all involved....not to mention the hoard of fireworks going off in the trailer park. Dog ignored it all. Focus was on the target and the dog was hot to go. Dog is 2 1/2 and on the road for a little over a year. No toys involved in man work since I've had him.

You can't train for every unforeseen scenario, but you can train for the ones you know of.
 

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So training for things is the key. Not training without "toys". Did any of your dog's pick up the bag on the first itteration of training? Any at all howard?


The dog did a nice second bite wouldn't you agree. I would guess he had seen that before and was ready to bite. If you look close you can see the difference in the dog on the two sends. Bad cue to bite not a toy. Your conclusion leads you to never find the truth.

Shame this had to happen but I bet a lot of guys will train for this If they see it.

You see a witch here. You plan on drowning women to make sure they are not witches. If they don't drown, they are not a witch. You are jumping to conclusions is what I am saying, about the cause.


Please pm the link.
Don't know the handler. Have never spoken to him. The dogs reactions belie the training. The original thread where this topic is discussed on another forum is 7 pages long. If you'd like to sign up to read it then I'll send you a PM with the link. It is an eye opener. The thread is still open if you have any questions after reading it.

Well, of course.\\:D/ On July 4th we took a guy down who threatened someone with a shotgun. Multiple bean bag rounds, Tasers and screaming SWAT guys were all involved....not to mention the hoard of fireworks going off in the trailer park. Dog ignored it all. Focus was on the target and the dog was hot to go. Dog is 2 1/2 and on the road for a little over a year. No toys involved in man work since I've had him.

You can't train for every unforeseen scenario, but you can train for the ones you know of.
 

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Dave Colborn;616377 You see a witch here. You plan on drowning women to make sure they are not witches. If they don't drown said:
Sorry. Meant to say if they do drown, they are not a witch.

Think what you like howard.

If you or anyone would reread the thread I think you or they'll see what I do. In two different spots in this thread I wrote one thing and you read another. I answered Chris McDonald and you thought it was directed at you. Just a small pattern of not seeing what is presented. Everyone does it I am sure. You just don't want that happening when you are looking at training. Which I believe you also erroneously did here, judging a fellow handlers training based on a video to try and support an arguement. I don't think that worked for you either if you honestly admit you train for things like this...not "I don't train with a toy so it never happens."

Do you train patrol dogs on drugs with toys?
 

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....and once again a thread gets completely derailed... A member asks for suggestions on how to teach a dog to search a building and it turns into a debate on whether police should ever train with toys... Good job.... >_<
 

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Dave. I'll send you the details, and a link to the thread. You read its' entirety because I don't have the energy to go through the whole thing. If you believe what you wrote in your last post then that's fine with me. You do what you want and I'll do what I believe will bring me home at night.
 

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I can agree with your whole post Howard. I know you wouldn't be doing what you are if it didn't work for you.

Jay, if you want to do some good next time...point out sooner that we should start an alternate thread. You are certainly right that this got pulled off track. My apologies..

Dave. I'll send you the details, and a link to the thread. You read its' entirety because I don't have the energy to go through the whole thing. If you believe what you wrote in your last post then that's fine with me. You do what you want and I'll do what I believe will bring me home at night.
 

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Haha.

The boss or a lowly worker bee like me can still muck up a thread without thinking what it's doing. Thanks, Jay.
Well, I always say...when you're with the boss you're never late, or wrong. I should have moved this on to another thread. No-one's fault but my own.
 

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What i was saying is we should all be here to police each other up. You can't be expected to be a great guy, cop, k9 officer and trainer, AND police everyone here up.

Peace, stay safe and thanks for what you do, Howard

What I meant was....as a Mod I should have started a new thread.
 

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sometimes, things can go off on a tangent with a related subject, but work full circle and come back to the original topic, after clarifying certain points...

some moderators, if you step up and challenge what they are saying, will beat you down and ban your arse, even if you have a legitimate challenge...

Howard however seems to be a great guy with a level head, but you both also seem to have that stubborn streak and didn't seem to want to drop things until the other cried uncle...

i usually just close a thread and don't bother coming back to it when it goes off the rails, but i am interested to hear how this handler works out - whether the police methods can help sort out the problems being had with the dog, whether another dog is assigned, etc...

i can be very short and blunt when i am tired, and as i said in another thread i have had about 0 downtime for the last 2 months, and right when i think i am going to get some i'm getting another phone call from work, i'm running on friggin' empty so i'm sorry if i happen to offend anyone : (
 
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