[angelo sintubin]

Hey, i have a question about searching in a building for a suspect. Police work. I am training with a friend who is with the police. She has a mal of 16 months and wants to learn the dog searching for persons behind closed doors. The dog must bark at the door where the suspect is behind. Is here anybody who is experience in this sort of work? Do you teach the dog first box work? Thx.

 

[Dave Colborn]

With all detection I try to focus on the hunt more.the alert is usually very easy. I don't want to assume anything, Does the dog bite?

Hey, i have a question about searching in a building for a suspect. Police work. I am training with a friend who is with the police. She has a mal of 16 months and wants to learn the dog searching for persons behind closed doors. The dog must bark at the door where the suspect is behind. Is here anybody who is experience in this sort of work? Do you teach the dog first box work? Thx.

 

[Jay Quinn]

You would think the police would have a preferred method for teaching something like this...

I don't have much experience with this sort of stuff but I did a little bit last year with a military bloke and a couple of my dogs...

We started out in a room with 4 doors off it, all the doors closed, and the decoy behind the first one with a sleeve... We made sure he was right behind the door and giving the dog the best chance to get the scent... I would then bring the dog into the room and lead him to the first door and when the dog showed interest in the door I would quietly encourage him and when he sniffed at it I would say "good boy!" in a loud voice and the decoy would open the door and give the dog a bite...

We just worked on the first door for quick sessions for about a week and the dog began to automatically run up to the door, have a good sniff, and then we got a bark alert through frustration... Once the dog was solid on run to door, sniff and bark, we left it a few days so the scent would dissipate a bit and then put the decoy behind the second door...

The dog of course ran to the first door and sniffed and before he could start barking I called him to the second door (dog still on leash), and told him to sniff there... He did and when he got the fresh scent of the decoy he gave a bark and got his reward... We worked the second door until the dog started to run past the first one to get to the second and then we put the decoy back behind the first door and let the dog run past to realise he'd missed his reward and he came back to the first door...

We did a few first doors, then second door, then finished on the first one... Then once the dog was reliably checking the first door on his way to the second when we mixed it up we added in the third... Same thing as before, dog would check first, check second, and then I would call him along to the third...

You have to make sure you teach the dog the pattern and that he must check every door as there is a chance of reward from every one, and we would always finish the session with a first door hide, so the dog never got in the habit of running past the first door as so many do because they are keen for action which always seems to occur further into the building...

Someone with more experience may be able to expand on this and add more steps but that's my limited experience with door-to-door building searches...

 

[Kevin Cyr]

Hey, i have a question about searching in a building for a suspect. Police work. I am training with a friend who is with the police. She has a mal of 16 months and wants to learn the dog searching for persons behind closed doors. The dog must bark at the door where the suspect is behind. Is here anybody who is experience in this sort of work? Do you teach the dog first box work? Thx.

I wouldn't teach a bark just yet...as Dave said thats an alert. Have you tried teaching the dog to search the bottom of the door or seams? Place decoy behind door and eventually send him back further as training progresses. Then standard building/room search once dog knows.

You can have him search and to alert you someone is in there have him sit or down, door open and game on? Just a thought.

With the bark, you are inviting the bad guy/decoy to move, run, prepare etc. Just bad set-up IMO.

 

[Howard Knauf]

Is this dog a patrol dog, or just owned by an officer? Does she plan on entering the K9 unit and using this dog in the near future? Why doesn't she just train with her unit? They can take her through it step by step.

Jay's suggestion is a good one.

 

[angelo sintubin]

She is a police officer. And is in training for the test that allows her to enter the training. I just thought it would be better to teach the dog scent boxes for a basic. She will learn the search a the training I think? If it would be mine dog. I would him first learn the scent boxes. And also teach the dog to sniff under the door and alert my by laying down. I would not use a decoy. But scent tubes with him human odor in it. And when she alert ni would mark and reward with a ball.

 

[Howard Knauf]

And also teach the dog to sniff under the door and alert my by laying down. I would not use a decoy. But scent tubes with him human odor in it. And when she alert ni would mark and reward with a ball.

This is not going to be acceptable for a patrol dog. She should enter the unit and do as the trainer says.

 

[Dave Colborn]

This is not going to be acceptable for a patrol dog. She should enter the unit and do as the trainer says.

I agree with working with the trainer. Why wouldn't it be acceptable though?

 

[angelo sintubin]

This is not going to be acceptable for a patrol dog. She should enter the unit and do as the trainer says.

I would learn the door search first as a low drive obedience exercise. Then when she start with the decoy the dog already knows what he has to do. Then you can spark her up en get her in high drive. Because now the dog is always on high drive and always want to bite. That is not acceptable. Maybe they is a child hidden in one of the rooms. Sometimes they have to search for a lost child or even a dog. It's not always search and bite.

 

[Ang Cangiano]

It sounds like you need to leave this dogs training to the head trainer of the K9 unit once she gets in. You'll not do either of them any favors by training the dog in a way that is counterproductive to the unit's method of deployment/training style.

Ang

 

[Ang Cangiano]

I agree with working with the trainer. Why wouldn't it be acceptable though?

Think of this scenario: suspect hides in building, ditches sweatshirt in a closet, dog alerts on sweatshirt, with passive alert because he's been trained to alert to odor, not human, suspect shoots dog from across room.

Ang

 

[Dave Colborn]

You are talking about proofing and tactics which occur in any method of teaching. angelo is talking about a method of teaching the dog to hunt. You think a dog giving a bark alert will help a handler hear someone that stashed that same sweatshirt? I would like to hear from current Le guys and gals or trainers of such. Are you? I bet Howard has a specific reason and I'd like to hear whether it's the toy, the alert or the scent tubes that cause him concern.

Since we don't know the style of training where the dog might go I do agree the best advice is to wait and train the dog under the trainer.

Think of this scenario: suspect hides in building, ditches sweatshirt in a closet, dog alerts on sweatshirt, with passive alert because he's been trained to alert to odor, not human, suspect shoots dog from across room.

Ang

 

[Dave Colborn]

Oh, wouldnt they shoot the cop if they are that committed...if they shoot the dog, the cops still located the bad guy. Dogs aren't magic. That cop still has to disarm and put cuffs on the guy either way.

Think of this scenario: suspect hides in building, ditches sweatshirt in a closet, dog alerts on sweatshirt, with passive alert because he's been trained to alert to odor, not human, suspect shoots dog from across room.

Ang

 

[Ang Cangiano]

You are talking about proofing and tactics which occur in any method of teaching. angelo is talking about a method of teaching the dog to hunt. You think a dog giving a bark alert will help a handler hear someone that stashed that same sweatshirt? I would like to hear from current Le guys and gals or trainers of such. Are you? I bet Howard has a specific reason and I'd like to hear whether it's the toy, the alert or the scent tubes that cause him concern.

Since we don't know the style of training where the dog might go I do agree the best advice is to wait and train the dog under the trainer.

Yes, I train LE K9's, and yes, I have a problem with all three of the things you stated, ball reward for finding a suspect, scent tubes instead of actual human, down/passive alert instead of aggressive. I gave one scenario where the dog could be killed, if you disagree with me, so be it.

Ang

 

[Dave Colborn]

Fair enough. How would you train it?

Yes, I train LE K9's, and yes, I have a problem with all three of the things you stated, ball reward for finding a suspect, scent tubes instead of actual human, down/passive alert instead of aggressive. I gave one scenario where the dog could be killed, if you disagree with me, so be it.

Ang

 

[Jay Quinn]

If all the dog is doing is alerting to the presence of a human in a room through a closed door it doesn't really matter if the alert is an aggressive one or if the dog is expecting a bite or not... If the handler is searching for a suspect then great, open the door and enter the room with the K9... If the handler is searching for a child or elderly person etc you would think they would be well aware of this fact and hopefully working with other officers who can enter the room without the K9 and handler... The handler can still reward the K9 for the indication without a bite occurring...

My own dog today alerted to an unexpected "victim" during SAR training, he is still at the stage where almost all his rewards come from his victim... I wasn't aware the person was there when we started our search and the person was not able to come out from where they were to play with and reward my dog, but he had done his job correctly by alerting me to a concealed human! So I had to reward him myself with a tug and then re-send him to find our planted victim who could get out of their hide and had a toy for him... I know its not entirely relevant but it is a similar situation to the dog not getting a bite on the person they have located...

 

[Howard Knauf]

I agree with working with the trainer. Why wouldn't it be acceptable though?

Ang covered it quite nicely, Dave. My main disagreement with the OP is the statement that this should be trained as a "low drive obedience exercise". The dogs' obedience should already be there even in high drive. Also, I want the dog to freely search without worrying about my nagging him. He should listen to me upon command because at times we have to call the dog to check areas he may have missed that we can see and he doesn't recognize as a potential hiding place for a criminal.

I also disagree with a passive alert even in the early stages of the training. I don't want my dog to know anything other than an aggressive alert from the outset upon finding any human. I want it clear in the dogs' head how he should respond every time to finding a hidden human. He cannot tell us who is hidden and we have to assume every time that it's a potential threat. We sort out the details whether we actually deploy him for apprehension or not.

We also do not train our dogs to alert on residual human odor. This causes a problem with the dog alerting to every bathroom and locker room they encounter. Last thing I want is the search team entering a bogus alert area when the bad guy could be one or two doors over past the locker room. A hot entry into a bogus room leaves the team vulnerable as our attention, defenses and firepower is divided.

And lastly....no toys allowed during apprehension work. We are hunting dangerous people, not dangerous tugs. Toys are OK for the sport field and SAR, not for dogs who likely to have to fight for their life. During man work their mind should always be set to the task of find and fight....not find and play ball. The dog recieves drive satisfaction in the hunt and possible engagement. A "Good Boy" and a pat on the head is all that is required if no engagement is allowed. It doesn't hurt the dogs' feeling to not get a toy. Withholding a bite builds drive and intensity and the dog will hunt harder next time around in an effort to get that contact.

 

[Dave Colborn]

My main disagreement with the OP is the statement that this should be trained as a "low drive obedience exercise".

Maybe I made a bad assumption here but I am assuming he means teaching the dog in a lower state of drive. For example toy instead of sleeve. Sleeve instead of bitesuit. Teaching in a lowered state, then raising the criteria and demand the obedience in a higher state once the dog knows the task.

Also, I want the dog to freely search without worrying about my nagging him. He should listen to me upon command because at times we have to call the dog to check areas he may have missed that we can see and he doesn't recognize as a potential hiding place for a criminal.

This is why I want to have the dog learn to hunt and bite first In search areas. So he learns the hiding places through hide placement. I agree with needing control to call a dog back to search an area.

I also disagree with a passive alert even in the early stages of the training. I don't want my dog to know anything other than an aggressive alert from the outset upon finding any human. I want it clear in the dogs' head how he should respond every time to finding a hidden human. He cannot tell us who is hidden and we have to assume every time that it's a potential threat. We sort out the details whether we actually deploy him for apprehension or not.

All the dogs I handled or trained for building search were trained to bark or scratch. I am pretty sure I have talked to swat guys that use quiet dogs on deliberate entries. I don't have a reference for that, so it may be revisionist history or just that the dogs were quiet prior to alerting, but alerting quietly makes tactical sense in some situations to me, anyway.

We also do not train our dogs to alert on residual human odor. This causes a problem with the dog alerting to every bathroom and locker room they encounter. Last thing I want is the search team entering a bogus alert area when the bad guy could be one or two doors over past the locker room. A hot entry into a bogus room leaves the team vulnerable as our attention, defenses and firepower is divided.

This makes sense.

And lastly....no toys allowed during apprehension work. We are hunting dangerous people, not dangerous tugs. Toys are OK for the sport field and SAR, not for dogs who likely to have to fight for their life. During man work their mind should always be set to the task of find and fight....not find and play ball. The dog recieves drive satisfaction in the hunt and possible engagement. A "Good Boy" and a pat on the head is all that is required if no engagement is allowed. It doesn't hurt the dogs' feeling to not get a toy. Withholding a bite builds drive and intensity and the dog will hunt harder next time around in an effort to get that contact.

I wonder how your green dogs were trained in Europe prior to you getting them....the end result needs to be a dog that bites reliably in a building search. The only way to know is an apprehension. But still, even with your fool proof way of letting a dog know that bitework is serious, you still train and proof, don't you?

I don't have a problem teaching a behavior to a young dog on a toy then putting them on a sleeve or suit. They DO learn better sometimes in a lower drive state.

 

[Howard Knauf]

Maybe I made a bad assumption here but I am assuming he means teaching the dog in a lower state of drive. For example toy instead of sleeve. Sleeve instead of bitesuit. Teaching in a lowered state, then raising the criteria and demand the obedience in a higher state once the dog knows the task.
This is why I want to have the dog learn to hunt and bite first In search areas. So he learns the hiding places through hide placement. I agree with needing control to call a dog back to search an area.

I guess we have a different methodology. I teach the building search in high drive with a live human. It works well for me, omits the use of a crutch (IMO, toys/equipment) and is faster. We only have so much time to prepare a dog for the street and building searches are just a fraction of what we teach.

All the dogs I handled or trained for building search were trained to bark or scratch. I am pretty sure I have talked to swat guys that use quiet dogs on deliberate entries. I don't have a reference for that, so it may be revisionist history or just that the dogs were quiet prior to alerting, but alerting quietly makes tactical sense in some situations to me, anyway.

A dedicated SWAT dog is fully under control while in drive. He can be commanded to be quiet, or audible alert when the circumstances demand, depends on the specific situation.

I wonder how your green dogs were trained in Europe prior to you getting them....the end result needs to be a dog that bites reliably in a building search. The only way to know is an apprehension. But still, even with your fool proof way of letting a dog know that bitework is serious, you still train and proof, don't you?

We have no control over how the dogs are trained in Europe before we get them. But, when we do get them we reprogram them to our needs. I've seen many a sport dog from Europe have problems throughout its' law enforcement career do to its' early training. Usually it's the older dogs though (2 1/2 to 3 1/2 years old). We proof every training session.

 

[Joby Becker]

hell.

I played with this with most of my dogs. and train with police on many occasions.
with most of the dogs, the dogs were hunting for someone to fight (or bite)

if the dog wants to engage, seems like a no brainer really to me, maybe I am wrong.

most of the dogs I have worked with bark and/or scratch if there is a doorway, or some other scent path that has a barrier to the "badguy"...as an almost natural response (in searches) to the barrier frustration or to show aggression, if visible ( I cant read the dogs minds').

However, I do know not ALL dogs are like that...

to the Original Poster (Angelo)..

is this a find and BITE dog, or a find and BARK dog...

for instance, what if there is no closed door and the guy is just hiding in a crowded basement corner or something, and the dog has full physical access to the "badguy"? is he supposed to bite? or bark?



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