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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'd like to know your thoughts on this. I'd also like to know how to train it.

However, I've never seen a dog target a weapon hand so I'm not sure how realistic it is. In theory it sounds good, but can and will a dog to it for real?

In just thinking out loud my feeling is that if a dog came at me while I have a knife in my right hand I could take the bite on my left arm and then simply stab the dog in the neck. On the other hand, if I see the dog coming and even if the dog is trained to take the weapon hand, I can keep my weapon hand just out of reach while the dog has to settle for a bite elsewhere which would then allow me to, again, stab the dog.

My thought is that it's good for the dog to take the weapon hand if it can do so easily. My concern is that the dog go in and engage even if it cannot quite get to the weapon hand.

Perhpas the value of targeting the weapon hand would be most realized if the dog is going in hard and fast at a target that isn't necessarily expecting it. For example, if a man is firing a weapon and the dog comes in from another direction and goes in hard, biting the offending arm and bringing the man down. This might provide an opportunity for the handler to more safely move in, etc.

Additionally, if the handler is actually fighting the weapon-holding man, it would be great if the handler's dog would deliver a devastating bite on the man's wrist or forearm that is holding the weapon.

But again, I've never actually seen a dog do this. I'd sure like to see it and I'd like to know how to train, even if I never do so. And obviously I'd like to get some feedback on this topic. Thanks.
 

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Wasn't there a video of a police dog - a Mal I think - in training somewhere that kept going after his handler's hand when he went to draw his gun?? I can't remember where it was, but I do remember seeing it. So apparently, this dog was trained to target the weapon hand, but was going after his handler when his handler grabbed a weapon.
 

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I've got a gun in one hand, and a hair brush in the other. Does the dog know the difference?
Disclaimer: I have had NO training in PSD or PPD. Just a thought!
Another disclaimer: I have had minimal training with a hair brush in the last few years also. :D :oops: :D :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Not to be a smart-ass (for once :mrgreen: ) but a really big, strong and bad man has you on the ground and you are doing everything possible to keep him from plunging his knife into your gut. Do you prefer that your dog to deliver a crushing bite to the bad guy's?

A) Thigh
B) Foot
C) empty handed arm
D) Wrist holding knife about to be plunged into your guy

Everybody's different, but I'm picking D. :wink:
 

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I'll have to defer to the real PPd/PSD trainers on this one. I'm afraid the big, strong, bad guy would have me stabbed before the dog got to him. :lol: :wink:
 

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Honestly, I wouldnt worry too much about taking the weapon hand first.It can be done and trained for but from what I know(which isnt much)it requires much foundation work before it can be trained or relied on.
IMO the dog can be trained to tell the difference between a gun and a brush.


Most people are right handed,something to consider!

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Well, like I said I've not seen a dog actually do this and so I'm wondering how well it actually works and how it would be trained. Maybe someone will come along and enlighten me. :idea: :D
 

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“Bite Targeting” is a simple concept in police dog training circles; it just requires much training, and rehearsal. Having said this, I will also have to make a distinction here; most dogs that do this thing live, have the experience from prior engagements to fight the target as a whole in the field, so the dog will read his assailant and take him down accordingly, regardless of the target training. He will not necessarily go for the target trained area. The whole idea of target training is the same as in marshal arts where you get taught to strike in certain areas for effect. So we utilize this technique to familiarize the dog with frontal, rear and side targeting areas, by only allowing these areas for a bite in training.

Specific targeting conditioning – when a dog is only taught and conditioned to bite the arm, he will in all likelihood continue to do this in practice. The idea of utilizing a whip to condition a dog to target the hand that has a weapon, came about when we were fighting riots, and the rioters built arm and leg guards from rain gutter pipes, by putting nails through them, and then working it down to 1 ½ inches, and then strapping it on with tube. So the dogs had nothing to bite that would not severely injure him, but the object in hand, a baton, or club or pipe.

We took whips and nicked the dogs with it, until they could only wrestle with the object in the perps hand, by utilizing bite suites that were extra padded, and very big, giving the dog a zero bite hold on the body. The aim was to ready dogs for crowd control work and elevate their bite training beyond the norm, as we were faced with this new dilemma. It worked, the dogs got clever, and they figured out that ankles and toe bites were just as effective, as well as elbows to get the subjects to submit. :)
 

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Reinier Geel said:
“Bite Targeting” is a simple concept in police dog training circles; it just requires much training, and rehearsal. Having said this, I will also have to make a distinction here; most dogs that do this thing live, have the experience from prior engagements to fight the target as a whole in the field, so the dog will read his assailant and take him down accordingly, regardless of the target training. He will not necessarily go for the target trained area. The whole idea of target training is the same as in marshal arts where you get taught to strike in certain areas for effect. So we utilize this technique to familiarize the dog with frontal, rear and side targeting areas, by only allowing these areas for a bite in training.

Specific targeting conditioning – when a dog is only taught and conditioned to bite the arm, he will in all likelihood continue to do this in practice. The idea of utilizing a whip to condition a dog to target the hand that has a weapon, came about when we were fighting riots, and the rioters built arm and leg guards from rain gutter pipes, by putting nails through them, and then working it down to 1 ½ inches, and then strapping it on with tube. So the dogs had nothing to bite that would not severely injure him, but the object in hand, a baton, or club or pipe.

We took whips and nicked the dogs with it, until they could only wrestle with the object in the perps hand, by utilizing bite suites that were extra padded, and very big, giving the dog a zero bite hold on the body. The aim was to ready dogs for crowd control work and elevate their bite training beyond the norm, as we were faced with this new dilemma. It worked, the dogs got clever, and they figured out that ankles and toe bites were just as effective, as well as elbows to get the subjects to submit. :)
So were the dogs retargeting ?Or did they just bite and hold one of these targeted areas??

What you describe,the dog must think first right?And not just fly in and bite?I was wondering how these dogs approach the suspect when coming in for a bite.

Greg
 

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Hi Greg, nice to see a lot of the old crowd here, no it is not specific, and each dog responds differently, the bulk of them however go for the weapon hand first, or will jump up on the perp to try and push him over, and then go for the ankles the head neck, buttocks and hands, as well as the shoes. The bigger dogs will get the item and wrestle it clear of the perp in training. And this was what we aimed for. I must admit, it is and was no full proof system either. Dogs don’t fight well against gladiators with amour, and get hurt.

The point -We tried to get all the dogs to aim better and then attack, but instincts take over. We did have some success to a certain extent. Then we resorted to normal means of crowd control –shotgun with rubber works far better. This technique was further exploited and we used it to frustrate dogs with that only want to bite arm and leg, and this is where it paid off, by not giving them the norm to bite on, legs and arms that is, they need to learn that anything is a target when being wrestled.

Yes they re-bite after they have disarmed the assailant, but some dogs don’t care much for the punishment and head for a face or neck bite, even under the arm; in the arm pits, it got to a stage where it got too dangerous. The experiment proved that dogs taught to bite the target areas would transition faster, to soft tissue areas, would find more areas never contemplated before. With the effect that if someone wrestled with them they would not hesitate to bite in the face, the neck or inner leg, as it was part of training targeting with agitators lying on the floor fighting them off. Not always advisable, this could kill a person instantly, so there must be method in one’s madness. So if the means does not justify the end then don’t go there. This just proves that by altering training we may also alter the outcome. This method should not be taught to civilian dogs, we utilized it with police dogs. We had riot helmets on, and safety boots – they don’t help much – and a specially made “telly tubby suite” – just so by the way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for coming over and posting Reinier. I'm looking forward to getting your input on many topics.
 

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Mr. Geel made some very good points. Targeting the gun hand can certainly be done. In my experience it works more often in training than it does in actual situations. Each actual bite is purely situational. Because of that, as long as the primary objective is met: the dog engages and stays engaged, then all is well. When you in that fight as long as that dog is biting something, he's helping.

DFrost
 

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I will have to stink this one up a bit, targeting the weapon hand is all good and oh sure, if you have time to play do it, but have any of you ever been bitten by a dog?????? Things really do shut down on just silly little bites, so if your dog bites really hard????

Take this test. You will need 1 rubber knife, a sweatshirt, first aid kit.

Let a really hard hitting dog run about 20 yards and you target that guy right into your armpit, innerthigh, forearm, wrist, ankle, calf, tricep, and traps. Each and everytime the dog hits you at 35 MPH, try and get him with your rubber knife. Let me know how many times you got him. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:



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Jeff, I think I'll pass on your challenge. I'm old not stupid. Still having been around a lot of pretty good patrol and even some psychotic old sentry dogs in my day, it has happened. I've seen them shot, stabbed and even choked. It depends on the committment of the person being bitten at the time.

DFrost
 
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Jeff Oehlsen said:
I will have to stink this one up a bit, targeting the weapon hand is all good and oh sure, if you have time to play do it, but have any of you ever been bitten by a dog?????? Things really do shut down on just silly little bites, so if your dog bites really hard????

Take this test. You will need 1 rubber knife, a sweatshirt, first aid kit.

Let a really hard hitting dog run about 20 yards and you target that guy right into your armpit, innerthigh, forearm, wrist, ankle, calf, tricep, and traps. Each and everytime the dog hits you at 35 MPH, try and get him with your rubber knife. Let me know how many times you got him. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


Yes Jeff. I have an ugly left hand, a result of dog bite. I had also sent some to hospitals after my dogs caught them doing mischief. In fact, most dogs in our small group had figured well in defense of their owners. One just happened lately when a young mal (my breeding) saved his family from 3 armed men in a restaurant they own while full of other customers. The dog identified, disarmed and neutralized just the three, hurting them real bad with multiple lacerations as a result of dog's retargetting. Blood was on the floor. One has to be helped as was hurt the most and went to the police precinct without his pants on. There was nothing left after the dog was thru with him.

Real training is not pleasant at all, but you wouldn't want it any other way.

Best regards...
 

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I keep thinking about the hairbrush in one hand and a weapon in the other comment, no one responded to that specific sentence.
AL
 

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<<<I keep thinking about the hairbrush in one hand and a weapon in the other comment, no one responded to that specific sentence.>>

I can't speak for sport, on the street however, my experience is; the dog is going to take the first thing he gets too.

DFrost
 

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Jeff, in knife fighting you are taught not to stay on the x, but move the minute the dog is within striking distance – then he will keep going 35 miles before he realizes he missed you –ha ha. Like David said, old not stupid – I have never trained without a suite, or at least a tug and scratch pants….but never the less, a good test when you have a lot of drunken buddies around who want to play Rambo with your dog.

On the other hand, I can tell you in all seriousness now, that agitators will get the dog with a knife, and that even hard biting dogs meet people that don’t even flinch when they get bitten, I have seen dogs that just get picked up and have the life chocked out of them….they are not super animals.

Al, I don’t think a dog is smart enough to tell the difference without having experience the one or the other ever before, -imo
 
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I've seen dogs that may not take an offered arm or leg. The dog takes another body part and starts there. The moment the decoy makes a hostile move, the dog almost instantaneously proceeds to flank the decoy pulling hard while on the bite, making it difficult to hit him. Or like a coiled spring, the dog may grab another body part, then do its predatory headshake. The dog may end up working at the decoy's back, if decoy puts up a lot of frontal resistance. It's all so dangerously unpredictable making a decoy worried. One may see much of these movements in a multiple-attack workout.

Yet this is not at all new. Even Stephanitz described the cunning of Shepherd's dog in combat as an art of war of a superior kind, one that knows how to use every means at its disposal, and not one that rushes in to grab and hold as some races do. Training should bring all these qualities out in a dog.

My $0.02 worth...
 
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