[ann schnerre]

ok, i know how ed frawley and jeff feel about this, but it hasn't been cussed and discussed to pieces on this forum.

Is there EVER a situation in which table training would be appropriate? it brings to mind (in my mind anyway) Schoeler's (sp?) method of training, but it seems that it works for some people. are there ANY "pros" to this training other than perhaps the old "quick & easy"?

as a caveat: i've never done it or seen it done other than a vid from (jipo-me kennels??) in europe, where they had pups (like 5-6 mo) in a box set up on a table. thought it might be worth re-hashing (or not) for newbies.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

ok, i know how ed frawley and jeff feel about this, but it hasn't been cussed and discussed to pieces on this forum.....

Yes it has..........


Here you go: 21 pages' worth.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=634

 

[Tim Martens]

that link doesn't work for me. it directs me to a page saying that it was from the old software, yadda, yadda, yadda. maybe you can still see it as an archived thread because you're a moderator, but we (i) can't see it...

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

fixed the link. enjoy.

 

[susan tuck]

I didn't post on the old thread, but just read it. I have no problem with tables. I do it the same way as described by Jerry. In fact, that's the only way I've ever seen it done. Every dog up there is happy & confident. My dog loves it.

 

[Tim Martens]

fixed the link. enjoy.

i did. thank you. i love those spirited debates. i read the whole damn thing again. good stuff...

 

[Amber Scott Dyer]

After reading the thread, want to add that although I don't really like the defense table too much, I've seen tables used in lots of different ways. I've seen trainers teach the initial article on tables, teach the h&b, teach the initial hold of the retrieve, etc. I think too many people classify ALL table training as bad, when in reality, not all table work is defense work, or even bitework.

What I don't like about defense table training is that it IS easy to really cause problems with trainers that don't know what they are doing. Most trainers that I've heard of using defense table training wanted to put a flashier, more defensive look into a dog that works mostly in prey. Theoretically, if you wanted to put a little defense into the dog, I've always understood that the dog should, at least in the beginning, 'win' and 'scare the helper away' once he shows defensive behavior, teaching the dog to understand that that sort of response on his part enacts a prey movement on the helper's part. Therefore, it seems kinda counterproductive to start a dog in defense where it feels cornered and at less of an advantage.

I have seen vid clips where dogs are on tables, backed up against the post, snarling like demons and obviously frightened. That kind of stuff being posted on boards doesn't do much to help the reputation of trainers that are responsibly using the table.

 

[susan tuck]

When the table is used correctly the dog does win every time. When the table is used correctly every dog brought to the table (that has been on it before) jumps up on it enthusiastically. Any training aid whether it's a pinch collar, e-collar, table, etc. if misused can damage or destroy a dog. I don't understand why so much hysteria is focused on the table.

 

[David Frost]

When the table is used, the dog is relieved when the pressure goes away. i see it as rewarding a relief from fight or flight. My concern, when the feces really hits the air distrubution device, the dog, not tethered, may decide flight is a good option. Didn't have that option on a table. Just my opinion.

DFrost

 

[Connie Sutherland]

.... not all table work is defense work, or even bitework.

I thought it was called a defense table because that was what it was originally meant for.

I did see that some people posting on the older thread were discussing other uses while some were talking about its use to elicit defense. Almost two different discussions going on in a few spots.

 

[Jerry Lyda]

David your statement is wrong. To make your statment correct you should have said this, "When the table is used incorrectly,"

But that's OK. Damage can be done, and there's no dought, when used wrong. This a specialized tool. When done right confidence should be built not destroyed. Sometimes it takes just a little confidence building to make the dog know that he will be alright in the real fight. But aren't we really lying to the dog? We don't know if he'll make it home on any night when he's at work. We don't know the officer will make it home either. I wish that only the best dogs where purchased by police officers but they are not ( MONEY ) so we try to make the perfect dog out of what we have. If that don't happen then we find a better dog.

I'm not trying to say that table training is the way to go but it does work for many dogs and then ONLY when done right. I'm not trying to convince anyone to my way of thinking either.

Now let's go train and get the best out of our dogs.

 

[ann schnerre]

well, teach me (again) to use the "search" function first.... i'm only on page 11, but i'll get thru it!!
thanks for the link Connie and Mike!

 

[David Frost]

Jerry, that's why I like forums such as this. In my mind, table training is wrong regardless of how it's used. I can't see a correct way of placing a dog in a position where the only option he has is too fight.

DFrost

 

[ann schnerre]

but what about the table that's NOT used as a "defense" table? what about using one as Amber noted? gotta get back to page 11 now that i've asked another dumba## question....

 

[Jerry Lyda]

David, Have you ever seen it used as I and Amber as well as others that have commented? Hold judgment until you have. If you have seen it used and you didn't agree with the way it was used then I'll bet I wouldn't like that method either.

 

[Kristen Cabe]

For those of you that are against it, are you also against using a backtie? How is table training any different than tying the dog on a pole (besides the obvious that he's not on the ground, etc.)?

 

[Jerry Lyda]

Forgot to mention this.
You said that in your mind by placing a dog in a postion to where he has two options, to fight or flight could not be good. I have a question for you. Do you start training a dog in bite work and use a leash? Have you given him and option to stay or leave because he might not like what you are doing?? When you first put a leash on a young dog, do they fight it. Sure they do, it's not something they are comfortable with. Most dogs when you put them on the table the first time, third or fourth time sometime they too are not sure about it. They do get to like it and will learn that this is not bad. Most dogs after it's introduced the right way, will run to get on. It becomes FUN to them.

 

[David Frost]

Jerry, I'm fairly certain I've seen them used about anyway they can be used. My original comment still stands.

DFrost

 

[David Frost]

Jerry, what I actually said was:<<< My concern, when the feces really hits the air distrubution device, the dog, not tethered, may decide flight is a good option. Didn't have that option on a table. >>>>

On the table the dog does not have the option of flight. His only option is to fight. When he's not tethered is when the problem can exist. Now he may have the option of flight. That may work in your training. It will not work in mine.

<<<Do you start training a dog in bite work and use a leash?>>> Yes, all initial bite work is on leash, with the handler present.

<<<Have you given him and option to stay or leave because he might not like what you are doing??>>> Done properly he will never chose that option, although he does have the freedom to do so. If he did, he would be eliminated from training.

<<<When you first put a leash on a young dog, do they fight it. Sure they do, it's not something they are comfortable with.>>> Maybe because it's new to him, but no other training will take place until the dog accepts the leash. That however wouldn't be a problem in our program as I don't buy puppies.

<<<Most dogs when you put them on the table the first time, third or fourth time sometime they too are not sure about it.>>> Yet when we introduce bitework, the dogs are confident, curious in front of the handler and wondering what in the world is going on. That is a good start. Less than that, I'd be very leery of that particular dog anyway.

<<<They do get to like it and will learn that this is not bad.>>> We expect ours to "get to like it" in very short order, usually after the first session they are ready to do it again.

You'll not change my opinion. I know some trainers use it. I don't and won't. Personally, I'd be leery of working a dog that was trained on a table. While it may work well, it can go to one of two extremes and I've seen both. 1. You get the psychotic old bite dog reminiscent of the old military sentry dog, or the dog that when the chips are down, bails out. Neither of which is accpetable in my opinion.

DFrost

 

[David Frost]

Kristen, no I don't back-tie either. I know that is used a lot as well. I don't.

DFrost