Stress in obedience.

I think a puppy or dog trusts you, when it will do your bidding even if contrary to ITS perception AT THAT MOMENT that your bidding threatens its SELF PRESERVATION.

This varies from dog to dog, as a function of genetics, of time, and specially as a function of shared exercises. Some that are very confident will not balk at helicopters, yet perhaps will stress at a herd of cows milling about; others will feel very insecure with a little elevation. This type of trust building must start low, slow and easy for puppies...and continue advancing for the life of the dog.

The work is individualized, the dog is carefully observed, and if he's stressing, he's either reassured or taken back a notch, and the attempts repeated until his task is done. Repetition is not, "Hey, dog, do this again!"...It's actually a shared activity or task. The handler must sweat it out WITH the dog...exactly as it is in real life.

This produces dogs that really see their handler as a pack leader, and will really engage on his behalf. Dogs raised in this fashion cue off other stimuli, besides commands...they also cue off "stress" and "will" from their handler.

Quote: If you heeling by an open sewer with a dog that stresses ove this

This to me is a case of weaker nerves. A dog with strong nerves will jump into the helo no problem first time.

If I have a dog the gets nervous over an open sewer, quite frankly, he is gone. I don't try to fix weaknesses like that. I can get another dog that won't give a crap easily enough. Nor would I feel confidant that the dog would cut it in a real world situation.

As far as the dogs doing things on high, I don't have a problem with it for PP dogs, or just dogs, but Mondio is new to me so I struggle just to teach the exersizes like object guard and escort. These are interesting, and hard, especially with new decoys. I know mine don't want to screw up the dog, mostly because they know they do not have the experience to fix what they screw up. I keep telling them that I can fix it, but this is what you deal with when they are new.

Hay, what is happening here; Just too much generalization here in the last part, we are really getting people all confused now. I for one cannot see the relevance of a few of the last post made, just too much generalization, and blanket statements here. Please forgive me, but we need some alignment here, for the sake of new handlers, looking for good advice - useable advice. This is my gripe, and then we ask why so many dogs are messed up.

For something:

There is no magic training - even in dog training – so some of the claims made here will be making someone a billionaire if you can, can it…

My point:

Any and every person, and dog will at some stage or another hesitate – I.E. Even if the light at a traffic intersection is green, and the intersection is obscured, and busy, do you blindly just shoot through without – Hesitation?

Will a dog jump – if he cannot see what is below?
Will a dog go for a piece of meat on the ground and just eat it – no, way – them and we are much smarter - he first smells it?
Do you get the point… anything living has a tendency to hesitate – weighing up his / the options.

The other thing that concerns me is that everything is now all mixing up here, different stages of development and training is creeping in everywhere here that has no business or place in training pups.

Believe me– I can relate to everything you guys are saying, even the hardcore training methods – but hay: this thread is not about adult dogs, or teeny bobs it’s about pups. 0 – 3 months is considered a pup.

“if you can get a puppy to obey while it is under stress (measured according to the pups ability, not age, and progressing accordingly), you will end up with a stable and very obedient dog.”

Trust, can only come from bonding; and bonding is socialisation – you showing the dog the ropes, grooming, feeding, comforting, and caring. That is at the one side of the spectrum, the other side we have reward and punishment, discipline and disapproval. – it all comes from one source the handler – and it creates positive and negative stress.

As for balls, toys and food – these are babies for crying out load– do you take the dummy away and let him scream his head off – it is a comforter, a pal, just because you want a tuff mutt – come on.

Nothing in dog training just takes one or two tries; any behaviour consistently enforced becomes a habit. Consistently means for as long as it takes.

Stress is natural and essential, and handlers do stress the dog, just by hearing the chain coming, they will get excited – this is good stress, maybe JOSE, you should distinguish between the two.

Agility, tracking and defence are all natural in our working dogs, - I assure you it is not – take this for example, Tracking a specific sent on command is Tracking, the rest is just scenting, yes that is natural. Agility, is not, how many dogs do you know, that will just walk gladly over an A frame on the first go. Defence is not – very few dogs will defend – as we understand the term in boxing. I Think :wink:

Reinier Geel said:

Hay, what is happening here; Just too much generalization here in the last part, we are really getting people all confused now. I for one cannot see the relevance of a few of the last post made, just too much generalization, and blanket statements here. Please forgive me, but we need some alignment here, for the sake of new handlers, looking for good advice - useable advice. This is my gripe, and then we ask why so many dogs are messed up.

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Nope, I don't see anyone confused here. In fact it was differentiated well. Different doesn't of course, mean superior, just different with applications intended for different intentions.

For something:

There is no magic training - even in dog training – so some of the claims made here will be making someone a billionaire if you can, can it…

Click to expand...

Of course there's no magic training, not even shortcuts. What was expressed here that you may have missed were wonders of what a well-attuned dog will do for its handler. I think you have to catch the meaning, not the words used. I'm sorry I don't live in an English-speaking country.

My point:

Any and every person, and dog will at some stage or another hesitate – I.E. Even if the light at a traffic intersection is green, and the intersection is obscured, and busy, do you blindly just shoot through without – Hesitation?

Click to expand...

Will you jump off a cliff to train your dog? What value will it have? Will you cross a passable swaying bridge local folks commonly use but new and thereby challenging to your dog? Probably you will and won't hesitate for the sake of your dog. After crossing it once or twice with your dog, wouldn't you check if the dog can do it alone? Considering that he's a good pup or dog and you handled him well, then trust me, he will do it alone. If you see him comfortable, will you not try to incorporate work in there like probably searching for articles somewhere on that swaying bridge, or cross that bridge and track for "missing persons" on the other side? Will there be any value in your work then? That's the point.

Will a dog jump – if he cannot see what is below?
Will a dog go for a piece of meat on the ground and just eat it – no, way – them and we are much smarter - he first smells it?
Do you get the point… anything living has a tendency to hesitate – weighing up his / the options.

Click to expand...

Will you allow your dog to hesitate and weigh his options if you're training for a precarious situation? Or would you rather train your dog to follow and obey you whatever wherever out of full trust and confidence in you? What do you think would be the value or use of presenting yourself as his comfort zone and not a stress-producer in early training until working stresses all become second-nature to him? Is it to allow him to hesitate and weigh his options before he obeys you?

The other thing that concerns me is that everything is now all mixing up here, different stages of development and training is creeping in everywhere here that has no business or place in training pups.

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Not at all. On the contrary, I find the exchanges just that, intellectual exchanges freely expressed. Just to be fair and honest to all.

Believe me– I can relate to everything you guys are saying, even the hardcore training methods – but hay: this thread is not about adult dogs, or teeny bobs it’s about pups. 0 – 3 months is considered a pup.

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If you can relate to everything, then there should be no problem. The topic can be sidetracked a bit as usual but not too far from the original discussion. Three month pup, as everyone knows, is indeed a pup.

“if you can get a puppy to obey while it is under stress (measured according to the pups ability, not age, and progressing accordingly), you will end up with a stable and very obedient dog.”

Trust, can only come from bonding; and bonding is socialisation – you showing the dog the ropes, grooming, feeding, comforting, and caring. That is at the one side of the spectrum, the other side we have reward and punishment, discipline and disapproval. – it all comes from one source the handler – and it creates positive and negative stress.

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I will agree. But don't you think others may have a different spectrum? I'd rather listen if I didn't know...

As for balls, toys and food – these are babies for crying out load– do you take the dummy away and let him scream his head off – it is a comforter, a pal, just because you want a tuff mutt – come on.

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Hmmm, so that's where you're mixed up, hanging on to your belief that all these props are the only way to build a tuff mutt. Well, ideas have just been presented, not to be taken as bible truth though, but rather as points to ponder. The only way is to work it, if you care and dare to try.

Nothing in dog training just takes one or two tries; any behaviour consistently enforced becomes a habit. Consistently means for as long as it takes.

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Allow me to rephrase your post for clearer understanding of what was actually meant. Nothing in dog training just takes one or two tries, if the dog is not well-attuned to its handler born out of rigourous and meaningful training both shared together. Now that's more like it.

Stress is natural and essential, and handlers do stress the dog, just by hearing the chain coming, they will get excited – this is good stress, maybe JOSE, you should distinguish between the two.

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Sure. You need to educate me on good stress though. Haven't heard of it. I only know of stress that can cause adverse effects on the dog and handler, which may present itself un/knowingly or un/expectedly in the work that need to be done, the working conditions, the environment or all of the above. First, I agree with you, stress is as natural and essential. Without stress, there can be no stabilization of both dog and handler. Without stabilization, there will be no confidence in the ability to perform well in all situations. Learning to work thru stress is the only way to overcome it. Stress then becomes a character-builder and a training aid second to none.

Agility, tracking and defence are all natural in our working dogs, - I assure you it is not – take this for example, Tracking a specific sent on command is Tracking, the rest is just scenting, yes that is natural. Agility, is not, how many dogs do you know, that will just walk gladly over an A frame on the first go. Defence is not – very few dogs will defend – as we understand the term in boxing. I Think :wink:

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Let's not talk about dogs, let's begin with pups. If you walk a pup 6 weeks of age (or even earlier) in some wooded areas with fallen logs and you go thru it, wouldn't that pup try to go over it to follow you? Well I can name and even show you more under natural environments, not only a-frames which seemingly becomes a symbol for agility in dogs. If you try to loss the pup by walking a little faster and hide somewhere nearby, will it not go thru the "process" of tracking you and at the same time builds the natural bond if you acknowledge it well when he finds you? Will you need a ball to do that, or rather use his natural desire to be with you? What's the use of training obedience or training itself as a whole, if it weren't intended to use the dog's natural abilities for your own good?

Best regards...

Al...good post. By stressing one is constantly expanding the pup's comfort zone, which in turn allows the pup to DO more in more PLACES.

Some wild animals are examples of bonds and cooperation, without IMMEDIATE reward. They are in it for the benefit of the pack; and in this case, the handler is the "pack". My conclusion, is that SOME dog/handler relationships are much, much more than OC; and that many canine behaviors are hardwired, and can be harnessed by sharing with them.

The dog should not hesitate if the handler doesn't. And I'm not referring to tactical pauses, obviously. I'm referring to the fact that a courageous dog does well under the tutelage of a courageous, intelligent and AWARE handler.

For example, we teach our dogs (when they're very young) to be pulled up into trees, upper floor windows, catwalks in factories, by pulling up on their harness. When they get "up there" they should be at ease. This part is easy, because of the following instinct. But what happens when you need to send them back down - say 10 meters - from a perfectly safe catwalk? Will the pup need to be pushed into the open, because he's grabbing on FOR DEAR LIFE? Will the pup want to grab whatever he can ON THE WAY down, because he doesn't trust you? Or will he just keep going down until you place him where you indicate, by listening for your command? Will he wait quietly for you to come down?

This is simply food for thought. It's different, and I think more natural. I AM NOT SAYING EASIER.

Even if you disagree with much, little or everything...go do stressful things with - WITH - your dog. You'll reap great rewards.

You're welcome, Reinier. Rest assured you always have my respect and admiration.

Hi Andres:

The dog that is well-attuned to its handler will not hesitate going up or down by a rope as directed by his handler. A good amount of stability had been worked on the dog of course. If you're working it first time and resistance is felt, give verbal correction and don't lower the dog until he's calm. Once he's calm then he goes down slowly. Talk (praise) to your dog while doing that. Once he's on the ground, give a sit or a downstay command and must stay there until you go down to get him. Same kind of obedience is given in doing terrain work. Obedience is of paramount importance and strictly enforced to ensure safety of both dog and handler.

It's no guarantee that my way of doing it will work for your dog. Each dog has its own character and "personality" only his handler/owner knows best. I only offer a lead.

Best regards...