That's not what I mean at all, as far as stress goes because, first, if the dog does well, you let him eat, therefore allowing him to reward himself; second, a pup should not be thinking that food on the ground means he has to "do something" to get it; and third, stress is not a DISTRACTION...rather, it is a situation or context that causes insecurity, which YOU as the HANDLER alleviate, thus becoming the "alleviator", which assists in establishing leadership and trust.
Stress in obedience.
My view is that if you can get a puppy to obey while it is under stress (measured according to the pups ability, not age, and progressing accordingly), you will end up with a stable and very obedient dog.
An excellent example is what you can see in Al Reanto's dogs.
As very significant by products, dogs trained in this fashion are also VERY self-confident, very focused and VERY agile and surefooted.
This "way" is directly opposed to the treats and rewards "way", because in the latter the dog works FOR HIMSELF, and in the former the dog works because of the bond between himself and the handler, and thus FOR THE HANDLER.
This "way" is not for sport dogs; at least not for sport programmes as they are currently configured, as you will not see the artificial "animation" that is so well liked in competition.
What you do see though, is a strong work ethic.
An excellent example is what you can see in Al Reanto's dogs.
As very significant by products, dogs trained in this fashion are also VERY self-confident, very focused and VERY agile and surefooted.
This "way" is directly opposed to the treats and rewards "way", because in the latter the dog works FOR HIMSELF, and in the former the dog works because of the bond between himself and the handler, and thus FOR THE HANDLER.
This "way" is not for sport dogs; at least not for sport programmes as they are currently configured, as you will not see the artificial "animation" that is so well liked in competition.
What you do see though, is a strong work ethic.
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Can I have an example? (The part where the handler relieves the stress.)Andres Martin said:That's not what I mean at all, as far as stress goes because, first, if the dog does well, you let him eat, therefore allowing him to reward himself; second, a pup should not be thinking that food on the ground means he has to "do something" to get it; and third, stress is not a DISTRACTION...rather, it is a situation or context that causes insecurity, which YOU as the HANDLER alleviate, thus becoming the "alleviator", which assists in establishing leadership and trust.would you guys consider it 'stress' if you start throwing food around and the puppy absolutely has to sit still until you tell him to? No corrections involve if the pup decides to get up and get the food...just remove them completely. I don't know how stressful this is (unless the pup is really hungry) but...I've found it's better for obedience then just say, putting the pup back in place, because they learn to control themselves.
Ah, so it's more having to put the dog in a strange condition like say on lying down on a wall and he has to maintain his balance and stay there, and to solve his dilemma he has to listen to his handler?
Andres Martin said:My view is that if you can get a puppy to obey while it is under stress (measured according to the pups ability, not age, and progressing accordingly), you will end up with a stable and very obedient dog.
An excellent example is what you can see in Al Reanto's dogs.
As very significant by products, dogs trained in this fashion are also VERY self-confident, very focused and VERY agile and surefooted.
This "way" is directly opposed to the treats and rewards "way", because in the latter the dog works FOR HIMSELF, and in the former the dog works because of the bond between himself and the handler, and thus FOR THE HANDLER.
This "way" is not for sport dogs; at least not for sport programmes as they are currently configured, as you will not see the artificial "animation" that is so well liked in competition.
What you do see though, is a strong work ethic.
Hi Andres:
Sorry I was out to respond to this post. Indeed the exercises we do is not the way of sportdogs. Like Lyn said, it cannot be compared as both methods are headed different directions (east-west) that the only point both camps can agree with is that both require dogs. Like Bob said, it's an effective way to test strong pups for future real work. It's some sort of a preparation or a foundation for the pup for his future vocation, where obedience is heavilly underscored purpose of which is to eliminate issues in a pup for a more fluid training come the time to train for a future vocation. It also eliminates test-of-wills between handler and dog that happens when addressing issues on a matured dog. More important, it is where the pup will stand one day, discipline during the work.
The purpose of every exercise is primarilly to strengthen trust, bond, confidence and communication between dog and handler. Routines and drills are a NO-NO to make sure the pup obeys anytime anywhere, no props, no routines, no drills. Working environments must always vary, always challenging. If pup breaks or freaks out, then work need to be done, else there's nothing to do and the handler goes home with no significant development with his dog. He may be one weak or a lazy handler. He needs to overcome his own fears and hesitations as it will show in his dog. Strong dogs need strong handlers.
Agility, tracking and defense are all natural in our working dogs, obedience being the only unnatural, hence stressful. To increase bond and trust between dog and handler, stress must not come from its handler. On the other hand, the handler must be an effective stress-reliever for his dog to make his dog stable and functional at the very point of high-stress, employing obedience and stress-handling techniques. Once the dog overcomes the stress, he's ready for more, until it all becomes second-nature. Reliability for the team to work on stressfull, unknown and unexpected circumstances is then achieved. Obedience then becomes a powerful tool up the handler's sleeves in high-stress workouts, and not the source of stress itself.
Long hours of work has nothing to do with perfecting flashy obedience. Obedience is applied and strictly enforced in the work always as a necessity. Long hours has to do with completing the task at hand, what the teams has set out to do for that training day.
Pups/dogs are always made aware of the environment. They think, they see, they feel but are always aware of their handlers. Just like in heeling, the dog looks forward and around sensing every area but is always aware of its handler beside him. Totally no cosmetics needed, no one is rating you and this must be off your head, else you lose focus yourself. When you work this, nothing else matters except you, your dog and the work.
Hope it clears somethings up....
Best regards...
Hi, Al,Jose Alberto Reanto said:..................Agility, tracking and defense are all natural in our working dogs, obedience being the only unnatural, hence stressful. To increase bond and trust between dog and handler, stress must not come from its handler. On the other hand, the handler must be an effective stress-reliever......
Could I have an example of this (in training obedience)?
Thanks!
With a working dog, handling stress is just as important as prey drive, hunt drive, etc. Regardless of how good the dog plays (chase) or hunts (search), if simple stress is more then the dog can handle, it's useless for work.
Sport or competition dogs may be able to train through this because of the repetition of some sport (AKC, Schutzhund, etc).
PSD,PPD, SAR dogs need to be exposed to everything and anything possible in order to expose any weakness in the event that unknow stress factor pops up in the real world.
Sport or competition dogs may be able to train through this because of the repetition of some sport (AKC, Schutzhund, etc).
PSD,PPD, SAR dogs need to be exposed to everything and anything possible in order to expose any weakness in the event that unknow stress factor pops up in the real world.
I think the obedience in itself is a stress reliever.
If you heeling by an open sewer with a dog that stresses ove this, just giving an obedience command can take the dogs mind off of the sewer and relieve the stress.
That's a very simple example of the handler relieving the stress.
If you heeling by an open sewer with a dog that stresses ove this, just giving an obedience command can take the dogs mind off of the sewer and relieve the stress.
That's a very simple example of the handler relieving the stress.
I agree with you, Bob. But let's not forget that no matter how much we expose our dogs to varying stresses in varying forms, reality always has a funny way of putting in surprises. So it's not primarilly the teams exposure though it's a very important factor, but the trust, bond and confidence of the dog towards its handler that makes it work first-time in any environment.Bob Scott said:With a working dog, handling stress is just as important as prey drive, hunt drive, etc. Regardless of how good the dog plays (chase) or hunts (search), if simple stress is more then the dog can handle, it's useless for work.
Sport or competition dogs may be able to train through this because of the repetition of some sport (AKC, Schutzhund, etc).
PSD,PPD, SAR dogs need to be exposed to everything and anything possible in order to expose any weakness in the event that unknow stress factor pops up in the real world.
Just my observation and opinion.
Best regards...
Bob Scott said:I think the obedience in itself is a stress reliever.
If you heeling by an open sewer with a dog that stresses ove this, just giving an obedience command can take the dogs mind off of the sewer and relieve the stress.
That's a very simple example of the handler relieving the stress.
Ahhhhh............ gotcha! :>)
I agree completely Al. We could never train for all the unknowns out there. Your comment about trust, bond and confidence is an excellent description of what I commented about the open sewer.
We would give an already-learned obedience command in a stressful situation, right? As opposed to teaching it in that situation?Bob Scott said:I agree completely Al. We could never train for all the unknowns out there. Your comment about trust, bond and confidence is an excellent description of what I commented about the open sewer.
I mean, by the open manhole, we are asking the dog to follow an obedience command that he has been trained -- not to learn a new one?
Hi Connie,Connie Sutherland said:Hi, Al,Jose Alberto Reanto said:..................Agility, tracking and defense are all natural in our working dogs, obedience being the only unnatural, hence stressful. To increase bond and trust between dog and handler, stress must not come from its handler. On the other hand, the handler must be an effective stress-reliever......
Could I have an example of this (in training obedience)?
Thanks!
Bob just gave you an example. It can be anything, of course. So it's not just doing obedience as sit, down, etc wherein one employs compulsion or rewards to achieve perfection. If one overdoes it, you may see a dog avoiding its handler like a plague. Obedience is applied in the work where the work and the environment themselves will cause the stress, and the handler causes the dog's release from his stress thru proper obedience.
That's the simplest explanation I could go so far.
Best regards...
Correct! At that point, tyring to teach a new command would only add more stress, IMHO.Connie Sutherland said:We would give an already-learned obedience command in a stressful situation, right? As opposed to teaching it in that situation?Bob Scott said:I agree completely Al. We could never train for all the unknowns out there. Your comment about trust, bond and confidence is an excellent description of what I commented about the open sewer.
I mean, by the open manhole, we are asking the dog to follow an obedience command that he has been trained -- not to learn a new one?
Now to contradict myself. If the dog is well trained, it should already have a lot of trust in the handler. In that case, something new shouldn't be quite as bad for the dog. I'ts already learned that trust and confidence in the handler.
As a point of interest, how do workingdogforum members view their dog's trust towards them?
How do you know your dog trusts you?
How do you know your dog trusts you?
In my case, my dog will try anything I ask him to. I realize a lot of that has to do with a confident dog to begin with.
The first time I had him climb a ladder, he went right up. The first time he was asked to jump into a running helicopter, he jumped right in. Just two examples of a confident dog that has learned to trust me. I don't know if the average pet could/would ever develope that same trust or confidence.
The first time I had him climb a ladder, he went right up. The first time he was asked to jump into a running helicopter, he jumped right in. Just two examples of a confident dog that has learned to trust me. I don't know if the average pet could/would ever develope that same trust or confidence.
My dogs follow a command I taught them (with the help of Bob Scott, I readily admit) to step behind me and stay behind me in a scary confrontation. (Remember they aren't protection-trained dogs.) Is that a small example of trust?Andres Martin said:As a point of interest, how do workingdogforum members view their dog's trust towards them?
How do you know your dog trusts you?
I've had to use this command for real; I'm not just saying that they follow it in training conditions.
That's a really good question. I can tell because when I read it, no words fall out of my mouth. :lol:
It will be interesting to read how others judge their dogs' trust.
Those sound to me like really good examples.Bob Scott said:In my case, my dog will try anything I ask him to. I realize a lot of that has to do with a confident dog to begin with.
The first time I had him climb a ladder, he went right up. The first time he was asked to jump into a running helicopter, he jumped right in. Just two examples of a confident dog that has learned to trust me. I don't know if the average pet could/would ever develope that same trust or confidence.
Exactly, Bob!!! Exactly. Do more to see more. No hesitations. If you hesitate even an ounce, then you have failed your dog. It's just you, the dog and the work you want done that day. If he fails, work him. It normally takes just 1 or 2 tries. Works like magic...Bob Scott said:In my case, my dog will try anything I ask him to. I realize a lot of that has to do with a confident dog to begin with.
The first time I had him climb a ladder, he went right up. The first time he was asked to jump into a running helicopter, he jumped right in. Just two examples of a confident dog that has learned to trust me. I don't know if the average pet could/would ever develope that same trust or confidence.
I might add that I like to see the dog do this happily with confidence. I don't want the dog doing something I tell it just because what I ask is the lesser of two evils.Jose Alberto Reanto said:Exactly, Bob!!! Exactly. Do more to see more. No hesitations. If you hesitate even an ounce, then you have failed your dog. It's just you, the dog and the work you want done that day. If he fails, work him. It normally takes just 1 or 2 tries. Works like magic...Bob Scott said:In my case, my dog will try anything I ask him to. I realize a lot of that has to do with a confident dog to begin with.
The first time I had him climb a ladder, he went right up. The first time he was asked to jump into a running helicopter, he jumped right in. Just two examples of a confident dog that has learned to trust me. I don't know if the average pet could/would ever develope that same trust or confidence.
Being that I do sport, not real life, I don't really need to get real carried away with putting dogs in high places, not that I am against it or anything but there is so much to teach the dog that all that takes a backseat to training the exersizes.
I do use distractions, but not really in the teaching phase. That leads to corrections, something I like to avoid, it just isn't as clear to the dog as it needs to be when they barely know what you are asking and you start correcting.
For distractions during the proofing stage, I start small and then get about as carried away as I possibly can. This has worked for me for all my dogs really well, except Buko. He gets so pumped up with "new" situations. This is going to be interesting, as the newness wears off rather quickly, but the problem still remains. I will be doing some e-collar work, hopefully this will fix it.
I do use distractions, but not really in the teaching phase. That leads to corrections, something I like to avoid, it just isn't as clear to the dog as it needs to be when they barely know what you are asking and you start correcting.
For distractions during the proofing stage, I start small and then get about as carried away as I possibly can. This has worked for me for all my dogs really well, except Buko. He gets so pumped up with "new" situations. This is going to be interesting, as the newness wears off rather quickly, but the problem still remains. I will be doing some e-collar work, hopefully this will fix it.
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