[Connie Sutherland]

Lyn - repetition is the key.

Obedience is the result of repetative disciplined work – how you consistently apply, your obedience training, will be the gauge – obedience is give and take. Yes some compulsion, coercion, and some grooming and affection, all in equal measures. – dogs are all about aggression, and how you control it. You can control aggression with both food and a stick.

I think
:wink:

But this whole thread started (I think) as an argument *against* food used in training. Didn't it?

Quote: This "way" is directly opposed to the treats and rewards "way" END QUOTE

 

[Connie Sutherland]

This is the biggest piece of crap statement since Woody posted last.

Funny stuff, Sybil. I would ask you if you ever realize in advance the karmic beatdowns you set yourself up for...but if this thread is any indication, I would say NO......

Of course he does. He likes that. :lol:

 

[Reinier Geel]

Connie;, without getting tecnical.

In my experience, dogs – young one’s are just like kids, they have very little fear – we pass on and teach them most of our personal fears. Let me explain thgis with a short actual scenario:

My one friend is a serious biker, he got him self a pup, and wanted to train it, as he lives in a rural area. He phoned me, and asked when can he come to train. My advice to him was – slow it down, let the dog be a dog first, and when he turns six months bring him, concentrate on socialising, as much as possible –We have little contact. So low and behold he took this to the extreme. He took the dog with on breakfast runs and on the back of his pick up, everywhere even to town. The dog sleeps in the house at his bedside – he is still single.

Then one day he arrived with a big fat dog, for training, this dog has everything a trainers hart will desire, he is well socialised with people, has no fear of load noises, will climb into and onto anything. In addition, he is as sharp as a whistle. Training was a breeze.

In my mind, stress is social interaction, and exposure to the environment we live in.

i Think :wink:

 

[Reinier Geel]

But this whole thread started (I think) as an argument *against* food used in training. Didn't it?

Quote: This "way" is directly opposed to the treats and rewards "way" END QUOTE

Connie – food or no food – the point is – whichever way you go – as long as you end up with a well-disciplined and social pup. – Then it worked – right or wrong – this is a general thread.

On the back of this; I will take a completely different stance if it was in the Police working environment context, on this, however, I did train civilian dogs, and have seen this – food thing work - to believe it.

I think :wink:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Hi, Reineir,

Heck yeah! Socialize socialize socialize!

But that isn't about teaching obedience, is it? It's about teaching life.

I'm saying that during the teaching phase (which for me happens to involve treats), stress is, for me, probably counterproductive.

Yes, the dog has been socialized like crazy.

And the dog will be "stressed" by distractions after the teaching phase.

Aside from the level of stress in the distraction (or proofing) phase, I'm not sure we (anyone) here is arguing against stress in obedience. Maybe we are arguing about when the stress is introduced (and remember that if it's not stressful to the individual dog, it's not stress).

Andres stated (I think) that stress in obedience was a "way" that was NOT the "way" that involves tangible rewards (quotation marks his).

I maintain that the tangible rewards are used in the teaching phase only, that they are phased out during the one-in-three phase, that they are not reintroduced unless a different teaching phase is, and that stress can be any distraction, including but not necessarily doing that ob up in the air or under fire in a dark room.

I think I train stable and confident dogs who don't have to go through a gunfire-crowded-dark-room phase because that's not what their lives will be like.

Recap: I don't see (again) how the teaching phase that involves rewards and the distraction (and correction) phases that follow are mutually exclusive.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Sorry, Reineir, you posted a second one while I was typing.

QUOTE: on this, however, I did train civilian dogs, and have seen this – food thing work - to believe it END QUOTE

Apparently you are not arguing against treats in the teaching phase, which I read Andres's opening post to be about. Or maybe it was more about treats and stress being two entirely separate "ways."


Good thread anyway.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Reinier,

Also sorry that I spelled your name wrong, twice!

 

[Lynn Cheffins]

"...The dog was so willing to please that training her seemed only a matter of communicating what I wanted her to do. Once she understood that, she would do it instantly and willingly. But in order to ascertain the reliability of her responce it was necessary to command a response in increasingly difficult conditions"
"motivating a dog means making him feel like doing it, Training a dog means teaching a dog to do it when the trainer says to. Training requires insistence at some point in the learning porcess"
(The Speed Mushing Manual - Jim Welch)

Is that kind of the thing you are taliking about Andres and Reiner?
(interesting subject BTW!)

 

[Reinier Geel]

Connie – don’t worry about it - I am well socialised as well, and wont bite, if you miss pronounce / spelled my name – grrrrrrr

My son responds well to treats and not so well to correction, so I bribe him, and at time I just give him a good correction, which ever works in that situation we find our selves in – becomes instinctive

I think
:wink:

 

[Greg Long]

Stress is one the most important training aids for me.The pup or dog is never put under more stress than it can handle.The stress that is applied is removed by the handler communicating to the dog and therefore the dog takes comfort in the work knowing that obeying the handler will result in removal of the stress.This is started at a very young age for the maximum benefit.
In this form of work with the dog,food or toy rewards only interfere with the communication that must occur for the excercise to be successful.It is much more than just distraction training.Also in this type of work,repetition should be avoided.Again this applied stress and obed is best started around 6 weeks.To not train a pup when he is at the age when he is learning the easiest and fastest is counterproductive as is avoiding stressing the pup,just dont over do it.


Greg

 

[Lyn Chen]

I thought it started out as training the dog to work with you versus teaching the dog to work for himself (i.e. in order to get a reward). :lol:

 

[Reinier Geel]

Lyn – YES, to reiterate this point – it is all about getting the mix between the two opposing parts of the spectrum in training right, compulsion and affection –in the right ratios produces the best results– nice quote BTW.

I think
:wink:

 

[Reinier Geel]

Oops now there is two lyn – and Lynn Cheffins, my last post was directed at Lynn

I Think :wink:

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Quote:Being street smart and having the experience to back it up, can beat any challenger in a street fight – or should that be a Bar fight – Jeff, just kidding.

Bar fights I win hands down. I am something like 1200-0 to this date. :twisted: :twisted:

All my dogs give two shits about all the gunfire you want to put out. In the past I taught dogs to not give a crap about it. Back then you would find my dogs dead asleep on their side laying next to me at busy gunranges.

I didn't have a dog with me when I visited your exotic homeland, or they could of experienced 5.56 and 7.62 on a regular basis. I don't think they would have had anymore the clue why they were there than I did.

If I don't stir up the pot, then the dang threads die. Remember your bungee thread??? :lol:

Besides, if I can't take the free shots you give me at Woody, WTF fun is that? :wink:

Nowadays, I train the dogs to see gunfire like the starters pistol. Works better for mondio. Stupid sport.

 

[Reinier Geel]

Hallo Jeff – got to love your work - the way you do your thing – please nothing personal, I was also just stirring…

The dogs sleeping during gun fire -Yes, I had a crew like that once, that slept on the job during night shift, then one night I stopped next to a low water bridge and started shooting, guess how long he had to swim to get out????
You Think, I think :wink:

 

[Andres Martin]

Ah! OK... 8) 8) 8)

So Jeff, what do you think of stress in obedience? In the teaching phase?

Lynn, what excellent quotes.

Connie, the reward for stress* in obedience is stress relief, doled out by the handler.

By the way, I'm NOT posting about the undesirability of treats or tugs. I'm posting to examine the method and benefits - if any - of stress in obedience. It not something discussed frequently, yet it may be useful...or at least enriching, if we get it discussed properly.

* The handler is NOT the source of the stress. :wink:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Ah! OK... 8) 8) 8)

......Connie, the reward for stress* in obedience is stress relief, doled out by the handler.....By the way, I'm NOT posting about the undesirability of treats or tugs. I'm posting to examine the method and benefits - if any - of stress in obedience. It not something discussed frequently, yet it may be useful...or at least enriching, if we get it discussed properly.

* The handler is NOT the source of the stress. :wink:

Stress during the teaching phase or after it? (Trying to get it discussed properly )

 

[Lyn Chen]

LOL now we've gotten it clear...

Teaching a dog to stay motivationally...would you guys consider it 'stress' if you start throwing food around and the puppy absolutely has to sit still until you tell him to? No corrections involve if the pup decides to get up and get the food...just remove them completely. I don't know how stressful this is (unless the pup is really hungry) but...I've found it's better for obedience then just say, putting the pup back in place, because they learn to control themselves.

I dunno if that's what you meant but this is a pretty good discussion.

 

[Lynn Cheffins]

I think Andres statement kind of sums it up "the reward for stress in obedience is stress relief doled out by the handler". Connie I think that stress can be applied somewhat in the teaching phase. Eg- If I have a dog that I am teaching to "line out" I am going to keep picking him up and plunking him back into position until he holds that line out even momentarilly. The dog is probably releived that the lesson is over but he's learned to cope with that little bit of stress. Gradually you are going to raise the stakes and introduce more distractions (stress) so let's say by using my example add more dogs behind him(10 screaming loonies jabbing the line behind him) and increasing the length of time he has to do it for. I think by using stress in obedience you teach the dog to deal with stress better and reveals more about the character and stength and weaknesses in the dog.

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

...would you guys consider it 'stress' if you start throwing food around and the puppy absolutely has to sit still until you tell him to?

Do you consider stress and frustration to be the same thing? I suppose it's a different kind of stress. When I think of stress I think of putting a dog in an unsettling situation, being off the ground is a "uh oh I hope I don't fall" type of stress, not being allowed to get the food is a "I really want that food but I'm not allowed" type stress. If that's stress at all.