Do both methods of training necessarily contradict each other? I've found it a bit pointless to argue over them because they do have their own purposes, and I train for both (I train agility and under stress. for no reward, I train fast mechanical obedience for reward).
Stress in obedience.
My view is that if you can get a puppy to obey while it is under stress (measured according to the pups ability, not age, and progressing accordingly), you will end up with a stable and very obedient dog.
An excellent example is what you can see in Al Reanto's dogs.
As very significant by products, dogs trained in this fashion are also VERY self-confident, very focused and VERY agile and surefooted.
This "way" is directly opposed to the treats and rewards "way", because in the latter the dog works FOR HIMSELF, and in the former the dog works because of the bond between himself and the handler, and thus FOR THE HANDLER.
This "way" is not for sport dogs; at least not for sport programmes as they are currently configured, as you will not see the artificial "animation" that is so well liked in competition.
What you do see though, is a strong work ethic.
An excellent example is what you can see in Al Reanto's dogs.
As very significant by products, dogs trained in this fashion are also VERY self-confident, very focused and VERY agile and surefooted.
This "way" is directly opposed to the treats and rewards "way", because in the latter the dog works FOR HIMSELF, and in the former the dog works because of the bond between himself and the handler, and thus FOR THE HANDLER.
This "way" is not for sport dogs; at least not for sport programmes as they are currently configured, as you will not see the artificial "animation" that is so well liked in competition.
What you do see though, is a strong work ethic.
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Yes, but treats and rewards are introductory, right? I mean, treats and rewards for me are not a lifelong routine by any means. When my dogs continue to obey long after the treats part (the teaching phase) is over, who are they working for? Me, I thought ----- the handler.
I think treats and rewards might be a way of life in the conformation ring......
I think treats and rewards might be a way of life in the conformation ring......
When I trained in SAR, we put our pups under a lot of these kinds of stress. That helped narrow down the dogs that made it through.
And maybe not ----- I'm speaking out of turn here based on AKC TV shows.......Connie Sutherland said:.........I think treats and rewards might be a way of life in the conformation ring......
What do we mean by stress?
And can you all give some examples corrallating pup ability with phased in motions of stress? Curious to hear.
...And does the stressful training you talk about here absolutely preclude sport dogs?
And can you all give some examples corrallating pup ability with phased in motions of stress? Curious to hear.
...And does the stressful training you talk about here absolutely preclude sport dogs?
My idea of stress:
Getting the dog up on obstacles. Getting dog to stay there. Getting dog to obey commands while up there. Getting dog down on obstacles. Going through obstacles (like fences, etc.). Getting (prey driven) dog to lie still while a bunch of kids play soccer in front of him. Taking dog through a busy street, with lots and lots of people, and again doing obedience there. Getting dog to obey from a distance. Getting dog to stare and focus on me while other dogs are running around (albeit this latter is a byproduct of this 'sports training').
Like I said, I'm of the opinion that this is no way related to 'sports training' and that you can do both provided you of course don't stupidly forget what your own dog is or isn't capable of. Dogs are smarter than that. It's in how you train, not what you train.
Getting the dog up on obstacles. Getting dog to stay there. Getting dog to obey commands while up there. Getting dog down on obstacles. Going through obstacles (like fences, etc.). Getting (prey driven) dog to lie still while a bunch of kids play soccer in front of him. Taking dog through a busy street, with lots and lots of people, and again doing obedience there. Getting dog to obey from a distance. Getting dog to stare and focus on me while other dogs are running around (albeit this latter is a byproduct of this 'sports training').
Like I said, I'm of the opinion that this is no way related to 'sports training' and that you can do both provided you of course don't stupidly forget what your own dog is or isn't capable of. Dogs are smarter than that. It's in how you train, not what you train.
Quote:artificial "animation" that is so well liked in competition
There is nothing artificial about the dogs. If it wasn't there, we couldn't get them to do it.
Quote:As very significant by products, dogs trained in this fashion are also VERY self-confident, very focused and VERY agile and surefooted.
Like suddenly my dog is clumsy? Has no self confidence? And trust me, focus is NOT something you are going to achieve with this method. Did you not notice the dogs all looking off in different directions? What picture are you looking at?
Quote:This "way" is directly opposed to the treats and rewards "way", because in the latter the dog works FOR HIMSELF, and in the former the dog works because of the bond between himself and the handler, and thus FOR THE HANDLER.
This is the biggest piece of crap statement since Woody posted last. I hear this all the time from trainers, and quite frankly, I have met these people and watched how hard they work with their dog. That is great, but I don't feel like training 5 hrs a day, when I can bust out some treats and have dogs that respond faster, and everytime. I can also work about 5 hrs a week, as opposed to 35 hrs. All my dogs work FOR ME. BECAUSE i ASKED THEM TO.
You can't be suprised that your getting beat over this. One of the reasons the call off will never be pretty, compulsion/no reward based OB. At that point, who is the dog working for again?????? :lol:
There is nothing artificial about the dogs. If it wasn't there, we couldn't get them to do it.
Quote:As very significant by products, dogs trained in this fashion are also VERY self-confident, very focused and VERY agile and surefooted.
Like suddenly my dog is clumsy? Has no self confidence? And trust me, focus is NOT something you are going to achieve with this method. Did you not notice the dogs all looking off in different directions? What picture are you looking at?
Quote:This "way" is directly opposed to the treats and rewards "way", because in the latter the dog works FOR HIMSELF, and in the former the dog works because of the bond between himself and the handler, and thus FOR THE HANDLER.
This is the biggest piece of crap statement since Woody posted last. I hear this all the time from trainers, and quite frankly, I have met these people and watched how hard they work with their dog. That is great, but I don't feel like training 5 hrs a day, when I can bust out some treats and have dogs that respond faster, and everytime. I can also work about 5 hrs a week, as opposed to 35 hrs. All my dogs work FOR ME. BECAUSE i ASKED THEM TO.
You can't be suprised that your getting beat over this. One of the reasons the call off will never be pretty, compulsion/no reward based OB. At that point, who is the dog working for again?????? :lol:
Jeff, if a dog breaks the stay, and you put him back in his place, is he working for you or because of you? :lol:
Quote:Jeff, if a dog breaks the stay, and you put him back in his place, is he working for you or because of you?
Cute. Until my recent trial, I could of told you to go .... yourself, as the dog hadn't broken the down stay. Now I just get to say stupid things like Cute, or dogs always are working for the pack leader or something really stupid like that.
Also, my dog scooted over and sniffed something, but never left the area. How many non food people can do this without any compulsion like I did??? Raising the dogs in the air doesn't count.
Cute. Until my recent trial, I could of told you to go .... yourself, as the dog hadn't broken the down stay. Now I just get to say stupid things like Cute, or dogs always are working for the pack leader or something really stupid like that.
Also, my dog scooted over and sniffed something, but never left the area. How many non food people can do this without any compulsion like I did??? Raising the dogs in the air doesn't count.
I should add that I have to save my compulsion for the heel. Stupid dog.
Jeff, have you ever trained a dog that has worked under live fire, very close up, of the 5.56 or 7.62 mm variety? With a bunch of other people around? In the dark? Loud voices everywhere? Stuff on the ground everywhere?
If you have, you can bash me all you want. If not...and more so, if you wonder why your pup breaks a down stay, or cannot control himself enough to NOT go up on tables UNSOLICITED... :lol: then, please evaluate alternative training methods with an open mind. :lol:
By artificial, I mean...a dog is not supposed to heel looking at you in the face...
If he does that where there are holes in the ground, or obstacles, he'll be trippin'.
A dogs "focus" should not be on the handler...it should be on the TASK. His "attention" should be on the handler. Focus and attention being two different animals. Focus should translate into concentration ON THE TASK.
A dog can be born agile, but if he does not experience obstacles, he WILL BE clumsy on them. A dog's particular area of difficulty in this is REAR PAW PLACEMENT.
Regarding "piece of crap" statements, I have no comment.
And regarding my "call off" or my return to handler off a bite, I agree fully that my dog or the ones I train with, do not return in a flashy way. They all want the man. I have no problem with that, but I posted because I try to keep an open mind. I'm always willing to learn something new...
Working dogs on a field differs significantly from working them in the real world. If most of your training is field work, where you know what distractions you will face, you must experience with at least 30 or 40 different dogs, what working in street conditions is about.
Dogs that work for food, bites or tugs, as a PRIMARY REINFORCER are a bit too hectic for my taste.
The reason I posted this, is to enrich and be enriched...by the discussion...not the bashing. If we can keep the bashing and ridicule to a low roar, and concentrate on the technical stuff, we will all be better served.
Woody, Stress in obedience...obstacles, positions, confinement, the dark, noise, smell, discomfort, subordination...and IMO it does not preclude sport dogs at all...but the high points in competition perhaps won't be there, as the responses will be less flashy.
Connie, if you used treats for teaching, and the obedience is still there for the most part after a while...but when the attention falters, you go back to reinforcing with treats and tugs...then it was always treats and tugs, and you've simply been reaping the benefits of a Variable Reward Schedule.
If you have, you can bash me all you want. If not...and more so, if you wonder why your pup breaks a down stay, or cannot control himself enough to NOT go up on tables UNSOLICITED... :lol: then, please evaluate alternative training methods with an open mind. :lol:
By artificial, I mean...a dog is not supposed to heel looking at you in the face...
If he does that where there are holes in the ground, or obstacles, he'll be trippin'.
A dogs "focus" should not be on the handler...it should be on the TASK. His "attention" should be on the handler. Focus and attention being two different animals. Focus should translate into concentration ON THE TASK.
A dog can be born agile, but if he does not experience obstacles, he WILL BE clumsy on them. A dog's particular area of difficulty in this is REAR PAW PLACEMENT.
Regarding "piece of crap" statements, I have no comment.
And regarding my "call off" or my return to handler off a bite, I agree fully that my dog or the ones I train with, do not return in a flashy way. They all want the man. I have no problem with that, but I posted because I try to keep an open mind. I'm always willing to learn something new...
Working dogs on a field differs significantly from working them in the real world. If most of your training is field work, where you know what distractions you will face, you must experience with at least 30 or 40 different dogs, what working in street conditions is about.
Dogs that work for food, bites or tugs, as a PRIMARY REINFORCER are a bit too hectic for my taste.
The reason I posted this, is to enrich and be enriched...by the discussion...not the bashing. If we can keep the bashing and ridicule to a low roar, and concentrate on the technical stuff, we will all be better served.
Woody, Stress in obedience...obstacles, positions, confinement, the dark, noise, smell, discomfort, subordination...and IMO it does not preclude sport dogs at all...but the high points in competition perhaps won't be there, as the responses will be less flashy.
Connie, if you used treats for teaching, and the obedience is still there for the most part after a while...but when the attention falters, you go back to reinforcing with treats and tugs...then it was always treats and tugs, and you've simply been reaping the benefits of a Variable Reward Schedule.
QUOTE: Connie, if you used treats for teaching, and the obedience is still there for the most part after a while...but when the attention falters, you go back to reinforcing with treats and tugs.. END
But I don't. I don't personally know anyone (at least not in our club) who does.
I don't know anyone who carries treats or tugs around after the teaching phase. And the one-in-three variable reward schedule is a step (the last step in O.C.) away from tangible rewards.
Does anyone here who trains obedience with rewards in the teaching phase disagree with this?
But I don't. I don't personally know anyone (at least not in our club) who does.
I don't know anyone who carries treats or tugs around after the teaching phase. And the one-in-three variable reward schedule is a step (the last step in O.C.) away from tangible rewards.
Does anyone here who trains obedience with rewards in the teaching phase disagree with this?
Connie, what do you do when obedience slacks after it's been taught?
Also, If possible it would be great to stay on topic...specifically: What's at work, that makes stress in obedience so valuable to some trainers and dogs?
Also, If possible it would be great to stay on topic...specifically: What's at work, that makes stress in obedience so valuable to some trainers and dogs?
What do you do when obedience slacks after it's been taught?
...compulsion? :roll:
...compulsion? :roll:
Andres my money is on you in this round, and by the way good reasoning and post I agree with what you think and say good strong advice and experience showing here, this does not come from sitting at some ones feet, it comes from having trained several dogs for real life situations yourself - i think. Bravo - my friend, a tip of the hat to you. :wink:
Being street smart and having the experience to back it up, can beat any challenger in a street fight or should that be a Bar fight Jeff, just kidding.
:lol:
Being street smart and having the experience to back it up, can beat any challenger in a street fight or should that be a Bar fight Jeff, just kidding.
:lol:
stress in OB
Andres,
OK, then, to stay on topic I guess I need to know exactly what kind of stress in obedience you mean, and whether the stress is introduced during the teaching phase.
I'm not sure I belong in this thread, but for now I will assume I do because you introduced it as being about obedience...... But the dogs I train are almost certainly never going to be under live fire in the dark in a crowd of people.
My point was that the dogs I train are begun with the "way" you deride (treats and tugs) and that these tangible rewards are phased out after the teaching phase. They are reintroduced if I start a new teaching phase.
Stress or fear in the teaching/learning phase is, I think, counterproductive. I believe that it slows the learning process.
In the distraction phase, then I guess we can call the distractions stress, can we not? So then who doesn't use stress *after* tangible rewards (teaching, and then distraction) in training obedience?
What I am not clear about is why these cannot be hand-in-hand, one phasing into the other.
Andres,
OK, then, to stay on topic I guess I need to know exactly what kind of stress in obedience you mean, and whether the stress is introduced during the teaching phase.
I'm not sure I belong in this thread, but for now I will assume I do because you introduced it as being about obedience...... But the dogs I train are almost certainly never going to be under live fire in the dark in a crowd of people.
My point was that the dogs I train are begun with the "way" you deride (treats and tugs) and that these tangible rewards are phased out after the teaching phase. They are reintroduced if I start a new teaching phase.
Stress or fear in the teaching/learning phase is, I think, counterproductive. I believe that it slows the learning process.
In the distraction phase, then I guess we can call the distractions stress, can we not? So then who doesn't use stress *after* tangible rewards (teaching, and then distraction) in training obedience?
What I am not clear about is why these cannot be hand-in-hand, one phasing into the other.
Lyn - repetition is the key.
Obedience is the result of repetative disciplined work how you consistently apply, your obedience training, will be the gauge obedience is give and take. Yes some compulsion, coercion, and some grooming and affection, all in equal measures. dogs are all about aggression, and how you control it. You can control aggression with both food and a stick.
I think
:wink:
Obedience is the result of repetative disciplined work how you consistently apply, your obedience training, will be the gauge obedience is give and take. Yes some compulsion, coercion, and some grooming and affection, all in equal measures. dogs are all about aggression, and how you control it. You can control aggression with both food and a stick.
I think
:wink:
And yes, I want to say "of course" but that sounds condescending :lol: .....yes, after the teaching and distractions phases, if there is incorrect response or lack of response to a command then there is a correction... at least for me.Lyn Chen said:What do you do when obedience slacks after it's been taught?
...compulsion? :roll:
Funny stuff, Sybil. I would ask you if you ever realize in advance the karmic beatdowns you set yourself up for...but if this thread is any indication, I would say NO.Jeff Oehlsen said:This is the biggest piece of crap statement since Woody posted last.
Et tu, Andres?
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