[Jeff Oehlsen]

Thought it would be interesting to see how everyone trains the stopped attack.

I was taught several ways, most deal with some sort of compulsion. Sandro and I were talking about how to deal with this without the compulsion.



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[steve gossmeyer]

i usually do it with having really good control. but i just do like a couple face attacks then throw in a stopped attack. but i usually use an ecollar just incase he goes to bite. somtimes i even nick him just incase when he is close. but i make sure i do a couple regular sends and not alot of stopped attacks. dont want the dog second guessing the entry. meaning dont want him to think im gonna call him off everytime. but ecollars are great for this

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

So the way we are thinking of doing this with the stopped attack without compulsion is to have the dog have a really good foundation with the whistle recall first. (duhhh) then have the dog on a harness and a long line with the line measured out so he cannot reach the decoy say 5-10 meters.

Then with the dog and a handler (not THE handler) on one end, the decoy the other, and slightly off to one side the REAL handler, and behind him, a blind and another decoy, in the blind.

IN THEORY (we haven't tried it) handler "B" sends the dog, dog gets to the 5-10 meter line and is whistled to heel by handler "A". If all goes right, then the decoy in the blind comes out and the dog is sent as a reward.

If possible, the decoy in the blind is the dogs "favorite" decoy. If the dog has one that is.

So the process is to have handler "A" start moving back towards handler "B" in an orderly fashion, until standing right next to him.

I have NO idea how well this will work, and only see a few possible problems so far. It seems like it will be a good way to do this without using compulsion.



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[Tim Martens]

what happens when the dog ignores the whistle and the other decoy? he hits the end of the line.....compulsion.

this is one of those areas where i just don't see the point other than to be able to say "my dog was trained all motivationally with no compulsion". if you combine compulsion with reward, then you get the best of both worlds with no negatives on a strong dog....

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Not trying to avoid all compulsion, just trying to get this exersize accomplished without having to blast away at the dog with the e-collar, or pinch. They are available, if it doesn't work out.

Not having tried it, those were definately some of the things I have anticipated. I have a pretty strong whistle recall right now..............well, right now.



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[steve gossmeyer]

i think the combination of a strong recall plus an ecollar jsut in case is the best way. but apples and oranges

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

how we do it:

strong foundation on HIER command, short distance (about 30 m), long measured line, dog on pinch, handler himself handles the line unless dog, call about 1-1.5 m. before end of line. If command is obeyed, dogs comes back reward by handler (verbal, ball or (re)bite). If not obeyed, correction by walking in pinch (not pulled in pinch but corrects himself), comes back..reward.

Not an active correction, but a passive one if needed, dogs learns that obeying is reward and corrects himself if he not obeys (inmediatly (sp?)

 

[steve gossmeyer]

sounds like a good way as well

 

[Tim Martens]

how we do it:

strong foundation on HIER command, short distance (about 30 m), long measured line, dog on pinch, handler himself handles the line unless dog, call about 1-1.5 m. before end of line. If command is obeyed, dogs comes back reward by handler (verbal, ball or (re)bite). If not obeyed, correction by walking in pinch (not pulled in pinch but corrects himself), comes back..reward.

Not an active correction, but a passive one if needed, dogs learns that obeying is reward and corrects himself if he not obeys (inmediatly (sp?)

that's how we've always done it. after that is reliable, we take the leash away and put the e-collar on...

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

This is a nice question when we discuss recall/stopped attack:

What do you do when dogs is/starting to anticipate on the excercise? For example: doesn´t want to go away from you anymore, returns before been called/whistled etc.

How do you deal with it: Don´t do excercise much, train the excercise everytime you trian or what?

Just being curious to your solutions...

 

[Lou Castle]

just trying to get this exersize accomplished without having to blast away at the dog with the e-collar, or pinch.

It's never necessary to "blast away at the dog with the Ecollar" if the recall has been properly taught, reinforced and proofed. I manage to do this while working at the stim level that the dog first feels.

 

[Lou Castle]

strong foundation on HIER command, short distance (about 30 m), long measured line, dog on pinch, handler himself handles the line unless dog, call about 1-1.5 m. before end of line. If command is obeyed, dogs comes back reward by handler (verbal, ball or (re)bite). If not obeyed, correction by walking in pinch (not pulled in pinch but corrects himself), comes back..reward.

I'm not a big fan of doing it this way. It's usually not a problem with most Mals but more sensitive dogs such as GSD's, won't go out again after hitting the end of the line hard. They usually will if you take off the line but then they don't stop. Put the line back on and they either won't go out or they go out a little way and then anticipate the correction, slow down, sometimes stop and sometimes return to the handler.

 

[Lou Castle]

that's how we've always done it. after that is reliable, we take the leash away and put the e-collar on...

Tim do you do any sort of introduction with the Ecollar so the dog knows what it means?

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

The biggest point I want to get across to the dog is to immediately return on the whistle, whether on the bite, or not. I think that is the ticket to getting this exersize correct.

As far as avoiding anticipation, that is finding the balance. Not always so easy for me.:smile:



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[Tim Martens]

Tim do you do any sort of introduction with the Ecollar so the dog knows what it means?

yes. e-collar is worn while turned off for a few days, then it's used in obedience (sits, downs, heeling). then used for apprehension/control work.

 

[Lou Castle]

yes. e-collar is worn while turned off for a few days, then it's used in obedience (sits, downs, heeling). then used for apprehension/control work.

Tim can you give me some idea of what you do during this period where the Ecollar is used in OB and then for apprehension? Do you couple it with leash corrections or substitute it for them? Do you use the nick or continuous button? Are corrections given automatically or only when the dog fails to perform a command. Do you give some warning before pressing the button?

 

[Tim Martens]

Tim can you give me some idea of what you do during this period where the Ecollar is used in OB and then for apprehension? Do you couple it with leash corrections or substitute it for them? Do you use the nick or continuous button? Are corrections given automatically or only when the dog fails to perform a command. Do you give some warning before pressing the button?

i'm thinking that it was not coupled with leash corrections. the button is pushed until the dog lets go, so continuous. no automatic corrections. no warning. it goes: command, compliance. if no compliance, the dog gets a zap. the amount of time between command and compliance is probably a second. any longer than that and the dog gets zapped.

this was then coupled with: when the dog complies either with or without a correction, the dog gets a reward bite on the recall (handler protection). it was only when this was added that consistent performance was achieved with my current dog.

edit: are you planning on doing any seminars up in this area again? i really wanted to go to the one is sac, but logistically, i couldn't do it (bring your own decoy, cost of protection dog entry)...

 

[Lou Castle]

i'm thinking that it was not coupled with leash corrections. the button is pushed until the dog lets go, so continuous. no automatic corrections. no warning. it goes: command, compliance. if no compliance, the dog gets a zap. the amount of time between command and compliance is probably a second. any longer than that and the dog gets zapped.

This usually works. But at times it doesn't. Some dogs bounce off the bite because the stim level is too high. It's hard to get some of them to bite again. It usually takes about three weeks of work and by then the call off is gone.

Some dogs, and you've probably seen them, simply bite harder and power through the pain. When that happens some trainers just turn the Ecollar up until they run out of room on the dial. Then they try two Ecollars. Then they try a hot stick. They some will go to a cattle prod. At that level we're well into animal abuse.

This was then coupled with: when the dog complies either with or without a correction, the dog gets a reward bite on the recall (handler protection). it was only when this was added that consistent performance was achieved with my current dog.

I'm not a fan of "reward bites." That language alone can get you into lots of trouble when testifying. It can also make it dangerous for other people or officers who are in the vicinity. It can happen that a dog gets in the habit of getting an immediate rebite as soon as he releases the bite he's been sent on. If he releases a bad guy on command he may turn and look for his next bite. If that's an officer who happens to be afraid of dogs, there can be problems.

edit: are you planning on doing any seminars up in this area again? i really wanted to go to the one is sac, but logistically, i couldn't do it (bring your own decoy, cost of protection dog entry)...

I don't have a schedule for the seminars. The happen when someone wants to see the work first hand and they set one up. If you want the details, let's go to private email.

 

[Tim Martens]

the secondary, or "reward bite" is only given every time in the beginning. after the dog is consistently coming off the bite and coming back for the handler protection, a bite may not be given. a tug may be substituted and sometimes, no reward at all. mixing it up, as with anything, is key.

 

[Lou Castle]

the secondary, or "reward bite" is only given every time in the beginning. after the dog is consistently coming off the bite and coming back for the handler protection, a bite may not be given. a tug may be substituted and sometimes, no reward at all. mixing it up, as with anything, is key.

I know this Tim but lots of people never wean the dog off this training. It becomes a habit and it's what they do every time they give their dog a bite in training.

But even for those who plan to do this, if a confrontation happens to occur in the middle of that training, since few people (no one that I know) take a dog out of service while it's being done, it can happen while the dog is learning to release. It takes a couple of weeks, months with some dogs before this training is concluded and the dog is weaned off the second bite.

I'm also not a fan of using a tug, a ball or any other kind of toy to reward a dog when he releases a bite. I think it gets the dog ready for play, rather than keeping him ready for combat. Usually when the dog is given a command to release the bite the fight is over, but not always. I don't think that dogs need to be rewarded for releasing their bites, it's just part of what's expected of them and I've never had much trouble getting them to do so. I teach an attitude of cooperation and teamwork rather than a master-slave relationship and it seems to work pretty well.