Stop attack

5161 Views 23 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Reinier Geel, Jul 16, 2006

Andres Martin

Discussion Starter · Jul 14, 2006

My next step with my pup is the stop attack.

I train this in the following manner:

1) I find a place with a clear "path" between trees, that's 75 - 100 meters long and two or three meters wide. The dog is with me at heel at the begining of this "hallway". The decoy appears at the end (100 mts away), I send the dog, the decoy disappears, I call the dog back at about 10 mts, and lightly correct him back to me.

2) I use a longer line (in the same place), and now I enlist the help of friends and a tennis net at the end of the path, before getting to the decoy. If the dog does not recall, the net comes up near-"ish" the decoy. Then I do stuff to proof when the net is no longer there.

...but y'all get the gist of what I do.

I would appreciate critique and/or suggestions for the "teaching" phase.

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Selena van Leeuwen

· #2 · Jul 14, 2006

Teach him on your ob. He knows the command to come back to you...So long leash (we have a 50 m. leash for this)and any correction type what works, call him when almost on the end of your leash, if not coming correct him. He is a good boy coming back to you, the greatest when he is next to you,then reward him.

Tennis net and things like that (bicycle thrown before the dog, guy jumping before the dog etc), are thought to be very old fashioned methods, when not around a dog will go through your command of coming back.

The basic of the exercise is come to you when called, and get that guy when told. So coming back when he is not called is bad boy, turning around when not called is a bad boy, going to the decoy when called is a bad boy. Coming when called is a good boy, going in a straight line when not called is a good boy etc.

David Frost

· #3 · Jul 14, 2006

<<<Teach him on your ob. He knows the command to come back to you...So long leash (we have a 50 m. leash for this)and any correction type what works, call him when almost on the end of your leash, if not coming correct him.>>>

Amen, totally agree. I insist on a good foundation in obediance before starting the "stop attack". We refer to is as a "standoff". I don't know how old fashioned bicycles and tennis nets are, but my first school was in Germany in 1966 and we never used those techniques. Our instructor was an old Nazi (that's a true story). While he was tough on dogs, we never used anything like that. While I've certainly developed many of my own techniques over the years, I've still maintained some basics. Such as: the dog bites when I tell him too, continues biting until I tell him stop, returns when commanded.

DFrost

Tim Martens

· #4 · Jul 15, 2006

i think one of the most important things with the call-off (what we call it) is that the dog CANNOT fail during the initial training. meaning it is imperative that dog NOT get a bite. there are various ways of doing this (fence, net, long line, etc.), but if the dog gets drive satisfaction by getting that bite, not only are you teaching him it's ok to disobey, but that the very command itself means to bite...

Andres Martin

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jul 15, 2006

The following four lines are NOT directed at Tim.

So...how do YOU train the dog to stop himself a few feet from biting a decoy?

Of course it's an obedience exercise of the most advanced kind...but what setup do you use? and what are your progressions?

I find it surprising that when ADVANCED training threads come about there are almost no responses, yet when we talk "DOG GOSSIP" there are many. Sheesh!

If we don't use this resource to exchange SPECIFIC training methods, we're wasting it. So far, only Selena and Tim have stepped up to bat. 8)

63 views so far...and only THREE of us training stop attack, call offs, or as we say it in Spanish, "Freno de ataque"?

Now off the soap box...
Tim wrote,

the dog CANNOT fail during the initial training. meaning it is imperative that dog NOT get a bite.

For me, the key word in your post is initially. In the "teaching the exercise" phase. Once the exercise has been taught, it's a different story.

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Mike Schoonbrood

· #6 · Jul 15, 2006

Similar to the bark and hold but with a recall instead of a sit.... on a long line that can't reach the decoy then Aus! Fuss! before the dog hits the end of the line. Elly showed me a nice way to do the bark and hold in a similar way, using an old bicycle wheel to block the dogs bite from the decoy, I suppose this is similar to the tennis net method? If the dog hits the end of the line instead of turning around there is a correction. Once the exercise is understood you can go to the e-collar. This is just how I've seen it trained, Cujo is super easy to control when he's in "bite mode", so never had to set it up like this, he is constantly looking for direction from his handler when he's working, to the point where if there is no direction from the handler and he's made to work on his own, he isn't sure of what to do.

Selena van Leeuwen

· #7 · Jul 15, 2006

For me "hier" (come) is the most important command, it is the ONLY command I learn a dog before 8 mo-1 yr.
First with some treats (as a young puppy), like some cooked meat or cheese parts. If they understand the meaning of the word, they must obey it ALWAYS and directly in what kind of a situation.
This is already the basis of the re-call/stop attack/terugroepen (dutch).
I call when there is food in their kennel, after the walk, i call when playing. I call when decoy is getting ready for excercise, so my basis for the re-call are already there, when I actually start to teach the excercise.

I have a long leash, so i have control, all measured out so the dog never can reach the decoy. I send the dog and recall, when almost on the end of the leash. If the dog is going through it walks into the (sharpened) prong (corrects himself). On his way back to me I tell him he is a good boy, by my side he´s the best and gets a reward (ball fetch usually or a bite by sending him again when i didn´t need a correction).

In the learning stage this is a excercise which is done every trainingday(3 times a week). At a point they are going to think for themselves and want to return before called, I wait till he´s back and gets punished for coming without calling. If he´s hesitating on 1 point, he´s pulled in and gets punished for hesitating. I use only 1 command for going and 1 for coming back, no more.

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Connie Sutherland

· #8 · Jul 15, 2006

Andres Martin said:
My next step with my pup is the stop attack.

I train this in the following manner:

1) I find a place with a clear "path" between trees, that's 75 - 100 meters long and two or three meters wide. The dog is with me at heel at the begining of this "hallway". The decoy appears at the end (100 mts away), I send the dog, the decoy disappears, I call the dog back at about 10 mts, and lightly correct him back to me.

2) I use a longer line (in the same place), and now I enlist the help of friends and a tennis net at the end of the path, before getting to the decoy. If the dog does not recall, the net comes up near-"ish" the decoy. Then I do stuff to proof when the net is no longer there.

...but y'all get the gist of what I do.

I would appreciate critique and/or suggestions for the "teaching" phase.

I have newbie questions, rather than suggestions.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=192

When you say "lightly correct" I assume you're using an e-collar? And the dog is on a long line? All this is what I use to teach the recall. But what is the barrier (net) for? I guess I'm not picturing it right. The e-collar corrects (in Selena's description the prong corrects) and the line keeps the dog in a measured distance. Isn't "stop attack" just recall?

Connie Sutherland

· #9 · Jul 15, 2006

I hope asking basic obedience questions doesn't kill the thread.

Selena van Leeuwen

· #10 · Jul 15, 2006

Things as tennisnets are used to stop the dog, when he doesn´t return on the command. In other words, dogs come back of something in his way and he haven´t got another choice, NOT on your ob. On a trial when the net isn´t there the dog often will go to your decoy, stop or hesitate, and (in KNPV) this all cost points.

Connie Sutherland

· #11 · Jul 15, 2006

Andres Martin said:
My next step with my pup is the stop attack.

I train this in the following manner:

1) I find a place with a clear "path" between trees, that's 75 - 100 meters long and two or three meters wide. The dog is with me at heel at the begining of this "hallway". The decoy appears at the end (100 mts away), I send the dog, the decoy disappears, I call the dog back at about 10 mts, and lightly correct him back to me.

2) I use a longer line (in the same place), and now I enlist the help of friends and a tennis net at the end of the path, before getting to the decoy. If the dog does not recall, the net comes up near-"ish" the decoy. Then I do stuff to proof when the net is no longer there.

...but y'all get the gist of what I do.

I would appreciate critique and/or suggestions for the "teaching" phase.

Teaching phase: OK, then, I don't have a barrier (net). And I never call a dog who might refuse AND can't be reeled in.

Pre-Step -1: I don't call the dog for any discipline or anything bad, like medicine. I do call the dog when anything good is going to happen (walk, car, play, food). "Come" means good stuff. It doesn't mean the end of play.

Step 1: I start with the dog very close and no distractions except for me, the treat-praise machine. The treat-praise machine makes coming very attractive. I don't correct for hesitation (because I don't want coming to me to be associated with a bad thing). If he doesn't come, I reel him in. No praise and no correction. If I have to go get him (he just looks at me, say), again no praise or correction.

Step 2: I don't repeat the command. If the dog doesn't come on first command, he's reeled in. If by chance he can't be reeled in (not a good situation until recall is perfect) and doesn't come, I go get him immediately. No correction and no reward.

So then distractions start, and I would think that a decoy and an attack would be a very strong distraction, so the recall would be 100% with a lot of escalating distractions before that one.

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Connie Sutherland

· #12 · Jul 15, 2006

No e-collar or prong because Andres said teaching phase.

Mike Schoonbrood

· #13 · Jul 15, 2006

Bitework changes the dogs state of mind, so it's more than a normal distraction in OB, distractions are a good practice for a command, but when it's time to fight the decoy, then it's all down to the dogs temprement as to how well they choose to listen... you can proof a dog 100% under normal distractions, then go out on the field and do bitework, n the dog will go into his own world with a different set of rules... some dogs get very obedient during bitework because they respect their pack leader and it's instinct to listen to the boss man when it's go-time... other very hard or dominant dogs tend to go off into the evil disobedience zone, they suddenly forget how to heel, they'll be pulling on the line and taking corrections 20x harder than they normally can take, they will refuse to sit, they'll constantly be trying to get at the decoy.... a very prey driven dog is taught to see it as an obedience game in a way.... "do what I want and you get to bite", a dog who is predominantly defensive or takes the work personally will be thinking in terms of this being a fight... if they are handler dependant like Cujo is, then obedience gets really snappy because they believe that they will win if they follow the boss man's instruction... but a very driven hard dominant dog will go off into a world of their own and become disobedient because they want to go off and kill this guy before the guy can come over and beat him with a stick. This is just my observation of different dogs working, I could be entirely wrong, but my observations seem to be pretty consistent with the dogs temprements when I see them working.

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Connie Sutherland

· #14 · Jul 15, 2006

I see, Mike. So then bite work is more than just a super-strong distraction.

That makes sense.

Still, you would do the recall so that it's perfect before stop attack?

Mike Schoonbrood

· #15 · Jul 15, 2006

Connie Sutherland said:
Still, you would do the recall so that it's perfect before stop attack?

Oh absolutely, but it wouldn't guarantee perfection on the training field.

Connie Sutherland

· #16 · Jul 15, 2006

Mike Schoonbrood said:
Connie Sutherland said:

Still, you would do the recall so that it's perfect before stop attack?

Click to expand...

Oh absolutely, but it wouldn't guarantee perfection on the training field.

And so that's why the net? Just in case? Because I do understand the importance of no reward ever for not coming when commanded.

As Tim said, it's vital that the dog never get the bite when he's disobeying the command (just as I consider it vital that the dog never gets to run around and have fun when disobeying the recall).

Michele Moore

· #17 · Jul 15, 2006

Mike Schoonbrood said:
other very hard or dominant dogs tend to go off into the evil disobedience zone, they suddenly forget how to heel, they'll be pulling on the line and taking corrections 20x harder than they normally can take, they will refuse to sit, they'll constantly be trying to get at the decoy.... a very prey driven dog is taught to see it as an obedience game in a way.... "do what I want and you get to bite", a dog who is predominantly defensive or takes the work personally will be thinking in terms of this being a fight... if they are handler dependant like Cujo is, then obedience gets really snappy because they believe that they will win if they follow the boss man's instruction... but a very driven hard dominant dog will go off into a world of their own and become disobedient because they want to go off and kill this guy before the guy can come over and beat him with a stick. This is just my observation of different dogs working, I could be entirely wrong, but my observations seem to be pretty consistent with the dogs temprements when I see them working.

They don't have to be so dominant. I have an extreme prey drive, loves to bite, female who I wouldn't consider extremely dominant who goes into the "civil disobedience" mode in bitework. Being as I am working towards the call off with her I will comment on what we have done. Normally I wouldn't comment at all, because I am very new at this, but Andres asked for more discussion! :lol: She tends to lose her freakin' mind in protection :mrgreen:

First I have been working on her control in protection. I down the dog and have the decoy stand about 10 feet away and be passive. I stand about 10 feet away from the decoy. We are standing in a triangle for lack of better way to explain.

I call the dog to heir, as soon as she gets to me and sits, I mark with a "yes" and send for the bite. She is doing good at this now. So I start putting her a little closer to the decoy. Then I add the decoy making attraction while I call the dog. Just basically reinforcing the heir under distraction. I begin with a long line then use the e-collar after I feel like she understands.

Next I will probably work in the call off with the long line...we are still working on consistant recall with a very animated decoy.

This is (was) a SchH dog, but I decided I want to try some Mondio with her.

Michele

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Connie Sutherland

· #18 · Jul 15, 2006

Ah! Using the decoy as the distraction, immobile at first and more animated to increase the distraction!

That seems brilliant to me.

Michele Moore

· #19 · Jul 15, 2006

Connie Sutherland said:
Ah! Using the decoy as the distraction, immobile at first and more animated to increase the distraction!

That seems brilliant to me.

That is how it was evident I didn't come up with it. :lol: Someone much smarter and who is a much better dog trainer then me helped with the training scenario.

Jeff Oehlsen

· #20 · Jul 15, 2006

First, you need a recall, for this I use a whistle, the whistle always means come back to heel.

then you measure off an arc with your long line, so that the dog cannot reach the decoy.

another person holds the long line, as a visual they are halfway between you and the decoy.

Part of your deal with this, is placing a flag so that you can see where to whistle the dog back.

In mondio it is always on the flee so the decoy in this instance will run in place facing away from the dog.

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