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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I don't start them in defense. What I do with puppies is this: first and most important, I select a puppy that shows social aggression and forward movement when faced with uncertainty; second, at night, a decoy walks around at aprox 25 yards from me, and then raises his voice at me, I raise it back...and start using a cue...and, regardless of what my puppy is doing, I move towards the decoy and beat the crap out of him. Many times the pups just hang back, thinking, "Wow, what a strange owner I have." It doesn't take more than five sessions, with a good puppy, to understand that he should follow the owner, bite the decoy, submit the decoy, etc. in response to specific words, or raised voices against strangers.

The IMMENSE benefits of this, are that the dog learns forward movement, it learns - via shaping - to ATTACK, not defend, and it's NOT MOVEMENT INDUCED. Also, the pup learns to fight TOGETHER with the handler, which is how reality is many times.

I take my dog to places where there are strange children...and sometimes he must work off lead. God forbid he were to bite a child just because the child ran...or acted scared. Mind you, good pups usually have SO MUCH prey, that one needs to control it, rather than enhance it.

Pressure comes into play...as does pain...in the measure the dog can take it and overcome in a positive way. Sometimes if you apply too much pressure, the dog must think, "Crap! I just went through chaos! I'm gonna hang back some next time." That's not a good outcome. The dog must come out of every encounter - in full blown social aggression - thinking, "I'm an ass-kicker!"

And so, I take it slow.

I've been training on obstacles, and actually...any stressor...and teaching ON/IN that environment since I was 8 yrs old. That's how my dad did it. He also used food, and played with the dogs, etc. Throughout my entire life we had GSD, until I saw the, "Jeez, what kinda dog is that?"...and as an adult, I switched to Mals. They were all tough dogs. Any dog that was not up to my dad's standard in power and stability was actually shot. The dogs that remained were an INTEGRAL part of our family.

Teaching pups and practicing in "the real world" is what the synthesis of the "Baden method" is. They did not invent it. I am not affiliated. It works beautifully. No dog beating, no extreme avoidance, except to teach the dog to overcome what's causing it...gradually. Frankly, if you don't push a dog beyond where IT wants to go, even after food or tugs...you WILL NOT GET THE DOG ANY FURTHER...AND IT WILL NEVER KNOW IT CAN.

Regarding the Baden claims on their web site, there's a bit of everything. Marketing is a bitch. And they make a living from this. So...I'm sure they exaggerate some. But those exaggerations appeal to a "niche" that buys. No big deal. People do that all the time. In every industry, for all products. Just make sure you sift through it to get the good stuff. Sometimes you have to do some more or some less sifting.

From a pure philosophical view, I agree with what the site says...specifically: People are soft, and soften up the breeds; everything that's bred does not deserve to live; people don't know or accept anything beyond the cookie cutter approach to dog training; people are more interested in themselves than in others; people are materialistic and status seekers as a rule, etc., etc.
 

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Andres,

Since that was so eloquently put,could you explain the importance of genetics in that type of work? :lol: Do you breed your own lines or get dogs from sport stock?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It's not about the stock...it's about the pup. I do both, breed my own dogs and buy outside.
Genetics and phenotype are ALL important, IMO. You can't do more than what the animal can do.
 
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Uh-oh. I did it all wrong #-o . I beat Caleb mercilessly beginning at 8 weeks to make him the fear- biting nervebag he is today. :lol:

Andres, how far past the "comfort zone" do you push a dog? (Per session and overall) How long does it usually take to determine when to shoot the s.o.b.?
 

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*mens, ga met jezelf spelen ofzo..dan doe je wat nuttigs en hebben wij er geen last van*

I just let a puppy be a puppy...play, potty train, socialize with things. Biting is first out of prey, just playing. It comes out eventually and a dog doesn´t have to ready at 12 or 18 mo. They´re ready when they are about 3.5 yrs...take it easy; even the hardest dog can snap..


You can´t learn a toddler universaty stuff...start with kindergarden stuff :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Selena's way, which is no question the most common, allows for unfettered development of the pup, but...

1) can (Selena, Mike) you trust your pups in a group of children?
2) can you trust your pup to be aware of you in a busy field?
3) can you trust your pup not to "chase" things or people he shouldn't chase?
4) can you trust your pups to not use his teeth indisciminately?

Let's say you have friends over for dinner...can your dog(s) be with you and be easy going?

Please don't assume I pressure my dogs inappropriately. My dogs have always been fun, easy going, they bite hard and full, they obey in distractions, they have fun climbing, sliding, in the dark, etc., etc.

...but they have stability.

My pup now is 21 months old...and he doesn't know pain yet. But he knows all kinds of environmental work, he's very sure around noise and gunfire, he knows about biting with opposition...

I agree that a dog is finished at around 3 1/2 years old.

Andres, how far past the "comfort zone" do you push a dog?
Very little, but always a little. I'm very patient and nurturing. A pup is a pup, but that doesn't give him the "right" to become conditioned to movement, nor should it enhance a toothy response to movement, nor should it allow for him to be an unruly pain in the ass.

Not all dogs are working dogs...by birth, genetics and prepping...
 

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Interesting thread for me. I'm not a breeder, I don't buy puppies and don't start puppies. I don't plan on doing so either, but the discussion is interesting to me.

DFrost
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The real question is... do I WANT a puppy that behaves like that at 8 months old.
Lyka is your first working dog........IN PROCESS.

Only time will tell...but you have talent and intelligence...

ah...I presume your answers are all, "No."
 

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Andres Martin said:
Selena's way, which is no question the most common, allows for unfettered development of the pup, but...

1) can (Selena, Mike) you trust your pups in a group of children? Why should i? My dogs only have to be social with me and hubby, i do not have pets, i have working dogs.
2) can you trust your pup to be aware of you in a busy field? yes..the only command i teach before 8-12 mo. is "hier" (come) and if i use that it is a duty..so must be obeyed anywhere, everytime..but i do not visit busy (dog)fields
3) can you trust your pup not to "chase" things or people he shouldn't chase? yes...see answer on 2.
4) can you trust your pups to not use his teeth indisciminately? I want to use a dog to use his teeth indisciminately

Let's say you have friends over for dinner...can your dog(s) be with you and be easy going? again...i don´t have pets

Please don't assume I pressure my dogs inappropriately. My dogs have always been fun, easy going, they bite hard and full, they obey in distractions, they have fun climbing, sliding, in the dark, etc., etc.

...but they have stability.mine to.. genetics..not taught, they´re king of the world, free to do what they like..if i allowed them to. In the first months they learn they are the greatest, but all above I am leader. There free untill i say otherwise. Not learning commands doesn´t mean we´re not bonding..the first months are the foundation of trust, friendship and leadership
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
i do not have pets, i have working dogs.
Yes...but, I need my dog free in the house because I live in a more dangerous environment than in the Netherlands.
but i do not visit busy (dog)fields
How about horses, cows, chickens, pigs, goats, garbage, sewage, rabbits, armadillos, squirrels, cats?...these are abundant where I work the dog.
I want to use a dog to use his teeth indisciminately
This I can't have...because the dog must bite ONLY what I tell him to.

Selena...you have sport dogs that are later converted to working dogs.

I'm close to running away under cover now... :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

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Andres,

......just so we don't have a "failure to communicate"......what kinds of stressors are you saying need to be used. "Stress" can cover a wide range of stimuli from taking them to a new patch of grass to beating them half to death with a board or worse. I need to be educated! :lol:


Debbie
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Pressure is IMO dog specific. Some dogs don't like elevations, some don't like water, some don't do well in confined spaces, or on slippery surfaces, or next to other animals, or on unstable surfaces, etc. so you have to look at what stresses your dog as an individual and work on that.
 

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Andres Martin said:
i do not have pets, i have working dogs.
Yes...but, I need my dog free in the house because I live in a more dangerous environment than in the Netherlands.
Oke, my dogs lives outside in kennels in the yard

but i do not visit busy (dog)fields
How about horses, cows, chickens, pigs, goats, garbage, sewage, rabbits, armadillos, squirrels, cats?...these are abundant where I work the dog.
i have a cat (main ****)which likes to go allong while we´re walking the dogs..they (learn) to ignore him..no horses,cows, pigs, coat, armadillos, squirrels around here...horses and cows only in fenced fields and i can pass them without problems. Pigs only live in barns here, armadillos isn´t a european specie. Squirrels only the little red ones in the woods and they run in a tree if we´re walking the dog, same for rabits. Dog (learn) to ignore them. Garbage is only found in thrash cans and what is sewage?

I want to use a dog to use his teeth indisciminately
This I can't have...because the dog must bite ONLY what I tell him to.

as a pup they may (try) to bite what he likes, unless i telling him not to..later on I tell him what he may and not bite (command vast)

Selena...you have sport dogs that are later converted to working dogs.

I'm close to running away under cover now... :lol: :lol: :lol:
your wife still around? let her read this...no quality time for Andres tonight unless her learns to behave himself...or.. if I harm you with this: make up a chore he hates

:twisted: :twisted:

Seriously: My anne is considered as a sportsdog by us...but others wouldn´t say that. Hubby doesn´t have sportdogs who converted into working dogs. His dogs are first working dogs that he learns to behave enough to also be a sportsdog.
 
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