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Too good of a post NOT to take out of context for the purposes of discussion...really interested to hear what people think of this statement.

A sport dog is largely useless, unless it helps the owner get some $$$. If it's just an ego thing, then it's largely useless. Most sport dogs, specially KNPV...are impossible. They have no manners. If you put them in a patrol car for example, they never stop moving. They react to sudden movement with their teeth too often. They've lived in a kennel too much. They can't be trusted amongst strangers, adults or kids. They have a hard time not getting distracted when in the company of livestock...
 

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Sport dogs, like any other hobby certainly serve a purpose to those that are interested in the sport. I personally have no use for them, but the competions are interesting to watch. From my perspective, there are some lessons some law enforcement trainers could certainly use. Particularly in the area of control. But that is another argument unto itself. I certainly disagree with comment about KNVP. I've seen many KNVP dogs that make fine law enforcement dogs. The ones I've seen work, of which I have a couple are certainly well controlled animals. There are many facets to working dogs, whether it's sport, ie Schutzhund Mondio, French Ring etc, SAR, detection work or patrol. In my background, I've trained mine/tunnel trip wire dogs, the routine police type patrol,drug, explosives, cadaver etc. Even worked on dogs that were trained to detect scuba divers. All have their place, but one thing I've seen as a common thread throughout the training. To the trainer, it was an animal that needed to meet specific objectives, to the handler, it was almost always his buddy and partner. So do sport dogs serve a purpose, sure they do, for both the dog and the handler.

DFrost
 

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Wow, Woody, you sure know how to stir things up! This statement, taken out of context (as you said), sounds soooo snotty! David, you said it all & very eloquently - Thanks!
 

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susan tuck said:
Wow, Woody, you sure know how to stir things up! This statement, taken out of context (as you said), sounds soooo snotty! David, you said it all & very eloquently - Thanks!
Provocative is the new snotty. ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Is breeding for sport hurting or helping the best
"sporting" breeds?
 

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I think the quote Woody posted should be complimented with this quote or it can be totally misunderstood....

Those that see dogs as a means of competition...lose out on having a dog as a "team" member. People that compete in dog sports compete for themselves. No real purpose. No exception. Those that participate in dog sports but do so to have fun with their dog, see the dog in "the pet category"
Personally, my dogs are pets that work.... and so are most working dogs that aren't out for championships.... a working dog can be a pet too, I think people in working circles think poorly of the word "pet", when in reality... that's what most working dogs are, a working dog injected into a home environment as part of the family. I think the folks who kennel their dogs all their lives purely to compete in championship level sport miss out on alot of their dogs personalities and alot of the enjoyable aspects of dog ownership. I think this goes hand in hand with how people view dogs... there's the types of people who work what they got... and there's the type of people who will guilt-free go thru 20 or 30+ dogs until they find the right one, then sell the dog if it turns out not to be "the one" even after the dog is fully trained.

So now that that's covered... is a sport dog worth anything? Or is it all for the handlers ego? Well, honestly, I think for many top level competitors, titling the dog is more important than the dog itself. These folks often don't have the opinion or relationships with dogs that the average working dog enthusiast may have... they have the dog because they want to say "hey look I'm a great trainer n I got this dog to world championships"... that's the ego part of it... then for a dog who is worth something as a competition dog, the monetary aspect comes from stud fees for studding out this amazing dog that won the championships... people paying for seminars offered by the guy who trained the world champion dog, people wanting puppies from the guy who's breeding his championship dog etc etc. I think that when you get to that level, some people (perhaps not all) lose sight of what a dog is all about and start seeing it as an object to make money with and create a reputation, rather than the love a pet owner shows their house dog. Not saying there's anything wrong with it -- but that'll never be me, I don't want to be detached from my dogs, if I buy a pup from a breeder that offers a bite guarantee on their pups, n it turns out the pup doesn't bite when he is a year old... that dog ain't going anywhere... I may buy another dog, but there's no way I can spend a year with a dog then give it back because the dog doesn't bite. Most hardcore working dog folks wouldn't hesitate to give the dog back n call it a piece of crap. I'm talking about sport dogs here, not police service dogs etc... but dogs who are bred and trained purely to go onto a training field to do what they've been trained to do serving no real purpose other than entertaining people. I don't have a problem with it, but I can see where Andres is coming from when he says sport dogs are worthless in a sense... but as in the quote I also pasted above, he goes on to point out that a working dog that is viewed as a pet has a different type of purpose in life, that is not limited to the training field.

Training methods are also very different among those who view dogs as objects rather than their best friends... suddenly borderline abusive training methods are considered acceptable because "this dog needs this type of training"... alot of trainers end up beating the shit outta dogs in the name of getting the dog to do what they want to do, for sport. I really hate this, I can't stand to watch it, and I have watched it... the end justifies the means type of training... personally I would rather not train a dog, than have to resort to abusive or borderline abusive methods... n if that's the type of training it takes to make a dog truly great at championship levels, then going to championships isn't for me. Perhaps some of you have seen the crazy shit some trainers will do to dogs, most of you haven't I'm sure, but it does go on... and the more detachment you have to a dog, the more abusive the training can get before a conscience kicks in... all to get the high score in championships.

It's funny though, people into dog sports try to convince the general public "the dogs like it, the dogs want to work, they are bred to do this"... but then you look at some of the shit those same trainers will do to a dog to get them to the championships... n it'd disgust the average person, even the average Schutzhund enthusiast. There is a site online somewhere that's been linked to all over other message boards, n it's by a lady reporting what goes on in her police departments training. Stuff about hanging and beating dogs I believe... n how dogs are regularly hung n beaten etc etc etc, I'm sure someone here can post the link. The first time I read that site I said "bullshit! she's a nutjob!"... since then I've heard how cops talk about their departments dogs and seen how some trainers like to train their dogs.... n I totally believe the validity of that ladies statements... because all that stuff does go on, on a regular basis, because of the detachment people have toward their working dogs rather than seeing these dogs as their best friends.

I'm not talking about people on this board (maybe I am? I don't know), but the detachment to a working dog and not seeing them as anything more than disposable cattle makes me feel sorry for dogs who are born into that type of life of training, I don't see the point. I really like motivational training for this reason, and Bob Scott's training club's 100% motivational training methods seem really cool to me, I'd love to see how they work with some of the harder dogs too. To me personally, if a dog doesn't enjoy the training, I wont want to train them, n if I have to resort to abusive training to get the dog to do something I need them to do, then I'm working the wrong dog.

On a slightly seperate note... my pet peeve is the assumption that everything's better in europe... there's as much crap in europe as there is in the US... it makes me feel sick when I go to dog training websites that sell stupid crap like kitchen weighing scales "imported from Germany" to measure out dog food... when I can go to Super Target and grab a Made In Taiwan scale for $3.99 that does the exact same thing. I've lived all over the world and been to over 25 different countries, n on the whole it's the same everywhere... there's many many people in the US who have the "livestock" opinion of dogs, just as there's many people in europe who treat their working dogs like children... but from the US perspective, when we think of europe, we think of the championship dogs and trainers and forget about all the average people that train their dogs just like we do, n we forget about the folks in the US who go to championships and have the same ideas and views as the championship folks in europe. There's good and bad in every country, n there's people with all sorts of mindsets everywhere, you can't say "the dutch are ruthless with their dogs and the americans are sentimental pansies", or "every dog in europe is well trained but dogs in the US aren't trained at all".... because there's plenty of people in europe that have never even thought of training their dog, just as there's many people in the US that do train their dogs.... some better than others, on both continents.
 

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I have a hard time narrowing it down to say my dog is a sport dog. My dog is my dog. We do sport training, SAR training, house manners, etc. It's all about being with my dog. I'd rather train then get free tickets to the World Series and the Super Bowl both.
Do I train for titles? You bet, but it's more about getting there rather then getting the title.
Mike, the serious dogs at club are trained the same way. It's all about finding what trips the dogs trigger. If a toy happens to do the job, then the toy is the reward. If it's getting another bite, that's what the dog gets for performance.
Just because a dog may be as serious as a heart attack doesn't mean that it wont work for something other then avoidance of a correction.
 

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Great comments! I agree with training to meet the specific objectives of the handler. One question, though. If you have a dog that is serious, confident, obedient, good structure and otherwise well equiped with the characteristics desireable for most handlers, and although willing, somewhat lacking in prey drive or enthusiasm for sport, would you deem it still breedworthy or suitable for other work? If motivational training is better facilitated through strong drive for food or the toy, what approach would you take with a dog that is not strong in these drives?
 

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Quote:but dogs who are bred and trained purely to go onto a training field to do what they've been trained to do serving no real purpose other than entertaining people.

You definately need more experience to really dicuss this with any real clarity. Sorry, but it needed to be said.

Most people go to the big trials it is not about ego, but testing themselves against some of the biggest (can I say prick???) judges. Many go to see old friends, and mentors. I would go just to see the other dogs.

Any time you overtrain a dog, which is what this carried away point thing incurrs, you see training more than what the dog is. I have had many many sport dogs that can do all these OH SO AMAZING things like be around livestock and not kill the neighbors kids. WTF are you guys reading to make you think this shit. Absolute crap. When I hear this stuff I wonder if you have any experience with training other than pushing a ******* shopping cart through petsmart. ](*,)

If you know ****-all, please ask the question. There are some really good trainers here. So I compete at the nationals and it is EGO???? The dog is worthless???? Have you lost your mind??? I had a high level competition dog that would on command dismember you, your dog, eat your gun, shit in your house, and return through your barn of cows without a seconds hesitation. Then a week later, go out and win trials.

It is the dog. Plain and simple. Some suck, some don't.

Oh, he would bite you in an attic. Moving?? Oh, you would be. :p

Don't forget, peace and love to all.



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Quote:I'm talking about sport dogs here, not police service dogs etc...

Oh God, where do you think they (PD) get them from :roll: Who do you think trains these people??(many times US, the sport people) It is scary when it is the military, although I do believe there was a time when there was validity to what they were doing.

I watch cops train dogs and thank the almighty that I don't have to deal with them. I have met a few that really had talent, but most of the time it is like watching a monkey *********. This is not to incite a riot with the police trainers here, but have you ever seen the competitions? Have you seen the training? If you are impressed, man you need to get out more. Most I have seen, the dog remembers the initial training, and gets by. Then they all have some excuse like a "real" biting dog is different. :roll: :roll: :roll:



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Daryl Ehret said:
Great comments! I agree with training to meet the specific objectives of the handler. One question, though. If you have a dog that is serious, confident, obedient, good structure and otherwise well equiped with the characteristics desireable for most handlers, and although willing, somewhat lacking in prey drive or enthusiasm for sport, would you deem it still breedworthy or suitable for other work? If motivational training is better facilitated through strong drive for food or the toy, what approach would you take with a dog that is not strong in these drives?
All dogs have something that makes them tick. Prey or food are definately the most common.
I'm working with a Presa pup right now that has a good prey drive but the rag has to damn near hit her before she bites it, then she's a monster. Shakes the crap outa it. It's just a matter of building on this by adding distance when shes keying off of the rag. It's working for her obedience also. She loves to bite,just to lazy to chase it. Not like many pups that will key off of the rag from a distance.
 

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unfortunately i think the person who posted the original comment was a bit riled up when he put that...

of course there is nothing wrong with sport dogs. they obviously are not "useless". i don't like when people who handle "real"working dogs, put down sport dogs. i truly admire a good sport dog because i know the time it takes to get to that point. also as has been said, our dogs come from sport backgrounds and without that, we'd have jackcrap to choose from.

i'm sure there are some people in it for the wrong reasons, but who's to say what reasons are "wrong"? i wish dog sports were bigger here in the US. i think it would be great if ASR took off here. then maybe we wouldn't have to get our dogs from half way around the world...
 

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Jeff I don't think you get what I'm saying, and I wasn't talking about you. I know there are great dogs and great trainers in top level competition, but there's some (read: alot) people out there training not for the dog but for themselves, and don't give a crap about the dog. When someone can train a dog for top level competition then turn around and sell the dog because they're not good enough, I consider that to be not giving a crap about the dog... maybe they think they do, but if they really did, they wouldn't want to part with the dog. It's like building a nice race car, then selling it -- you want to see the car you built go to the races, n you want the next owner to not wreck it, but in all reality it's just another car made of sheet metal, which is how many people I've encountered with this "livestock" view think about dogs. The motivation for training a dog at top level competition is different to the motivation a working pet owner has, n that motivation leads to emotional detachment over the dogs. Do you think Bernard Flinks is gonna keep Itor if he had some psychological issue that stops the dog from biting? Or is he gonna rehome the dog? A working pet owner would keep the dog... my trainer sold 2 of his personal dogs to make room and have money to buy his next national competition dog... he's a great trainer and a heck of a nice guy, but does he have the bond with his dogs that a working pet owner has? No, or he wouldn't have been able to sell the dogs he had to buy another dog. I'm not saying it makes them bad people or bad trainers, but at the end of the day, he wants his name in Schutzhund USA magazine next to the new Sch champion so he can take credit for the dogs training and build his reputation even further, and ultimately make more money. You obviously have some sentiment with your dogs, you told me a while back you had a dog like Cujo who became your "truck dog" (at least I think it was you?) -- 3/4 of the serious working dog folks I've encountered woulda gotten rid of the dog to make room for another working dog, you obviously care enough about your dogs to keep em around (or maybe it's just that one dog?). I was just trying to point out, that in many cases (and I repeat... not all), it's about the handler winning, not the dog, the dog is often just proof of a trainers skill and replacable if they can't achieve the desired results, whereas a working pet isn't replacable, they are kept no matter what happens and the bond is stronger because of it. Not to say there's no working pets at championship level, I know one of them personally.... but she is also a dog broker... I doubt she will rehome her competition dog, but she has no emotional attachment or bond to any of the other dogs she gets in as far as I am aware. She loves her dogs, but not to the level that a pet owner would.

Perhaps, given on your reaction to my post and your reasons for competing... you see your dogs more in the Pet category than in the Livestock category afterall :p
 

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As for your comment on police dog training, honestly, it's the most disappointing training I have ever seen in my life, I know police dogs get their dogs from sport backgrounds... but again, that's monetary incentive for the sport competitor, "if I win this championship I can breed a litter n sell em for double to police overseas", I doubt any IPO championship breeder will say "hey you know what, I'm damn proud of my dog, he's done very well, now I'm happy n I'm gonna breed a litter n sell the pups to a police department in the US for $350 each because I'm a good samaritan n want to see police departments get good dogs"... yeahhhh :lol: I'm sure there's very nice police dogs out there somewhere, but the ones I've done bitework with have piss poor control work on them, the dogs have to be told to out 6+ times in some cases. A K9 Sgt I've talked to would rather kill puppies than train them, n would rather kill a dog than retire them, n would rather kill a dog than rehome an unsuitable PSD. There's less attachment to dogs in that mans voice than anyone i've ever talked to, the dog is equipment, 100%, the only thing people like that care about in a dog is whether or not they can work, n if they can't they should be shot. I've seen a dog (witnessed it with my very own eyes) get sold to a department being a great 18 month old GSD, absolutely awesome dog... then over a few months the dog just went stupid, the dog was pulled outta the department by the guy who sold the dog to them n replaced with "a dog they can't screw up before they make the dog they have completely useless and unusable!".
 

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Quote:Do you think Bernard Flinks is gonna keep Itor if he had some psychological issue that stops the dog from biting?

Think anyone would listen to him if he didn't have itor? Can he use his system on a different dog??

Quote:When someone can train a dog for top level competition then turn around and sell the dog because they're not good enough, I consider that to be not giving a crap about the dog...

You can only have so many dogs. What happens if your little girl dog becomes a really good competition dog???? Let me tell you, Cujo stays at the house a lot. It is the nature of the beast. She will need more training to do better. At the higher levels of competition, you are doing a lot of exersizes, and it takes time. Other dogs get pushed off to the side.

Of course, everyone is different.

Of course I like dogs. The "truck dog" has passed on. Of course I miss her. There is always a dog that gets in, I just don't think every dog out there is worth it.



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police dog training

I think the topic of the competency of police departments in training canines is a very touchy one. There are bad trainers everywhere. However, my experience with police department dog training caused me to have a very negative opinion on this. I have a Belgian Malinois who has issues with reactivity and hectic behavior. Several police canine trainer/handlers told me he had a dominance/aggression problem and that I should routinely beat the crap out of him. One showed me a move he called a "rib shot" where you basically give the dog a debilitating kick or puch in the ribs. He said he routinely did this to his dog to keep him in check. Another one (who is a proclaimed "Malinois expert"), threw my dog to the ground, wrapped his muzzle with his leash and held him there until he blew his anal glands and nearly overheated from stress/fear. Dominance problem my a$$! He's a big dog and I think if he had a dominance problem, he would have retaliated by biting the hell out of her. Instead, he freezes, tucks tail and heads for the truck whenever he hears her southern drawl. That particular person will never touch my dog again (mea culpa - sorry Riot). Neither of these "methods" seem to me to be productive (nor do I consider them "training"). If anything, beating up on the dog made him worse.

After talking and working with a trainer/decoy in the sport field, we determined what his issues really are. I've seen more progress in the past 3-4 weeks than I ever saw with him before.

Not trying to throw darts - just my 2 cents.
 

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Re: police dog training

Konnie Hein said:
..... One showed me a move he called a "rib shot" where you basically give the dog a debilitating kick or puch in the ribs. He said he routinely did this to his dog to keep him in check. Another one (who is a proclaimed "Malinois expert"), threw my dog to the ground, wrapped his muzzle with his leash and held him there until he blew his anal glands and nearly overheated from stress/fear. Dominance problem my a$$! He's a big dog and I think if he had a dominance problem, he would have retaliated by biting the hell out of her. Instead, he freezes, tucks tail and heads for the truck whenever he hears her southern drawl. That particular person will never touch my dog again.....
My own 2 cents..... those are bad dog people... *period*. "Police" is irrelevant in that sad story.

I know that you learned from this not to allow anyone to handle your dog until it has been explained exactly what will be done and why, and *you have approved it.*

A rough way to learn that you are your dog's protector. Maybe someone will read this and remember it.
 
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