"Undefined labels" --- scary no matter where they accumulate power.Jeff Oehlsen said:
I have to print it out, though; the tables and graphs are teeny on the screen.
"Undefined labels" --- scary no matter where they accumulate power.Jeff Oehlsen said:Give this a read
http://www.caninechronicle.com/Features/Battaglia_06/battaglia_506.html
THen the second part:
http://www.caninechronicle.com/Features/Battaglia_06/battaglia_606.html
These are some of the things I was mentioning in previous posts.
What's wrong with that?In [animal rights activists'] words, a responsible breeder is expected to screen and test all of their stock before breeding. This idea sounds great on the surface but this is only the first step. As the breeders and their clubs continue to embrace this label, the animal rights activist slowly begins to lobby for the required use of both DNA and health screening. This follow-up step is called raising the bar. It is unfolding one step at a time. We already have heard their voices asking that more testing be used on breeding stock. Next they will push for testing as a condition of breeding and then as a condition to register breeding stock and their pups. In some quarters, they already are asking that it become a condition for entry in some AKC venues.
I'd really like to know where THIS idea came from, because it's certainly untrue. :? I don't think that EVERY pup should be sold with a spay/neuter contract, but I believe in the limited registration until the pup is older and can be determined to be breed-worthy or not, and if not, it should be neutered to prevent its owners from breeding it.Notice in Figure 1 how quickly the breeders responded when they were told that in order to be a "responsible breeder" they should sell their pups on limited registrations or on spay/neuter contracts as a way to control overpopulation a problem that does not exist.
Again, what the HELL is wrong with that??The animal rights movement believes that all breeders should screen and test all of their breeding stock as the first step to producing the pups they will sell.
Why is this?Since the AKC has already collected DNA on more than 350,000 dogs, one would think that the breeders would have learned more about how the parentage tests works and how the DNA health tests can be used in their breeding program. The truth is that very few breeders can explain the DNA parentage test or how it is being used to preserve the integrity of the stud book. One would also expect that because of the widespread support for DNA health testing more breeders would be using the 35-plus DNA health tests that are already available for screening diseases. The record shows just the opposite. Most breeders do not use the DNA parentage test unless it is required and only a small percentage are using the DNA health tests, x-rays or other clinical protocols as a way to eliminate or manage the carriers in their pedigrees.
Again?...it seems fair to say that the animal rights movement will continue to ask that all breeding stock be screened and tested. In time, they will demand health and parentage testing of every litter.
Ok, here she sites a reference, but it's from a 7 year old source.. Breeders are selling pups on limited registrations and/or spay/neuter contracts in the belief they will help to control the problem that we know does not exist (Strand)
They shouldn't. I agree with this point.Why would breeders want to remove their pups from the gene pool of their own breeds if nothing was wrong with them?
It should go without saying that pups without proper conformation and temperament should not even have been considered for breeding in the first place, and therefore would not be a candidate for DNA testing anyway. :roll:Most breeders have not noticed how testing has been linked to a way to measure breedings and the quality of the pups produced. The second problem for the "responsible breeder" to solve involves the use of DNA technology, x-rays and other clinical protocols. The goal is to require widespread testing of those saved for breeding. Theoretically this would produce the better individuals. The problem with their logic is that the pups saved may not be the better specimens of their breed based on the breed standard. Saving those who have been tested for health and parentage is not the same as saving those who are the better specimens based on their conformation and temperament.
The notion of creating labels isn't new. Hilter, William Hearst, Rush Limbaugh, Karl Rove all excelled in the art of binding slogans and language to concepts that may not be true. My overall point here is that this article does exactly what she tries to blame the "nuts" for doing...i.e., a bunch of unrelated crap and innuendo to get baked up into some lame argument against animal rights people.Woody Taylor said:Jeff Oehlsen said:I thought it was showing (in a long drawn out way) how the animal rights people are trying to narrow definitions so they can use them later in legislation against breeding in general.
So educate me.I have been in this dog thing a really long time. Most people that are starting nowdays really don't even try to have a clue. They come to the internet and gorge themselves on opinion and BS and fact, not having a clue what is what.
If you're talking about 60 litters a year out of a ******* farm in chicken coops, with direct sales into the pet store market with either misleading or purposeful info about the quality of the animals to misinform idiots like me, yes, those are mills. If you're talking about a legit breeder who's culling, okay, but I would prefer a smaller breeder who's got a year-long waiting list and is able to help a buyer handpick a pup suitable for them based on their direct interaction with the pup.PETA will do anything possible to get where they want to go. It is starting to work. Think about your definition of a responsible breeder. If you had 60 litters a year, would you think that this is a responsible breeder? Don't even try to say yes, I have seen too many posts from the noobs about these "millers".
Yes, I did, and I'd love to try out the notions she suggests. But scientists can make really bad advocates sometimes. They sometimes have the handicap of thinking their particular world-view doesn't allow for shades of gray or, more importantly, allowing data that doesn't line up with their thesis to be discarded. There's a long list of folks like this.Sad that she really did a bad job of getting the point across on this one. Many of you enjoyed her article on raising puppies though I did see.
Dr. Battaglia is a "he," BTW.Jeff Oehlsen said:I thought it was showing (in a long drawn out way) how the animal rights people are trying to narrow definitions so they can use them later............Sad that she really did a bad job of getting the point across on this one. Many of you enjoyed her article on raising puppies though I did see.
Like...Selena? Or Al? If I were aware of large-scale breeders that put out high-quality dogs that were properly socialized, and bred with great lines I had confidence I could check, and wanted to stay in touch with me (in Selena's case, to the point of not shipping them overseas)...I guess I'd feel differently. The bottom line is that a high-volume breeder is doing so for profit, more likely than not, and in my experience (outside of your dog world) tends to screw up motives and intent. And an operation with lots of litters but lots of culls is not the same as one that churns out puppies. You know exactly what I'm talking about when I say puppy mills, and you know they're disgusting. That's not a definition PETA fed me.Jeff Oehlsen said:Here is exactly what I am talking about. Over and over on the internet you see advice to choose the smaller breeder. Definitions that are stupid becomeing general opinion...I want to go to the guy that has bred a lot of dogs, and is sucessful in what he is producing, and has his own lines. We don't have that here. I don't want some small time guy's GUESS breeding. Sure they work out sometimes, but who cares. Can't build off of it.
You know, as I sit here in my fuzzy slippers, sipping on my wine cooler, wondering if my dog will come out from under the table (the ice clinking in my thin-stemmed wine glass scared the daylights out of her), I could go back over the exchange you and I have had twice now about newbs and their right to info and their right to be exposed to information before they figure it out the hard way and wreck a dog. I guess all I can say at this point is just because I do not know as much about dogs as you doesn't mean I never will, and just because I don't know much about working dogs now definitely does not mean I don't know a little bit about other things that happen in the world beyond ringsport.So here are a few examples of what PETA is promoting. This is not necessarily their (the people who responded) fault, but when you have people with very little experience spouting off what others have said that on the surface makes sense, you can see how disinformation would spread.... They had enough common sense to realize that the abuse would only come from themselves, unlike the NOOBS of today that have to question everything to death instead of just thinking about it.
Lame. Let's pretend this wasn't a real person on this forum who knows a great deal about dogs, dog lines, and has spent most of her life around animals that you--by your own admission a few weeks back--would love to have, and a person who we all to a member seem to respect and gives up a lot of her time to answer questions from people half-way across the world. Selena is still a small-time breeder who, I bet, barely breaks even. That's why I'm encouraging her to sell to the States to hunyucks who will pay out ear for dogs that many of them may never really appreciate.Jeff Oehlsen said:Quote:Like...Selena?
Lets face facts here. Nice person, but I would put her husband as the breeder and the trainer, not Selena. Nice to have access to her husbands training thoughts though, and possibly the rest of her family, who are accomplished trainers. She is on her first dog, if I remember correctly but has an incredible advantage over the rest of us with all her family around.
And I'll bet you I could spot them thanks to my time here interacting with people like you (and I mean that in a good way, Jeff).So is the low volume breeder for the most part. I have seen some of the crap that "working/show" breeders are producing, and it is to pay the rent, or pay for a trial don't kid yourself.