Hi Samuel
Are you sure you mean a "prong" collar?
I think you mean a "choke" collar if you are talking about links.
Are you sure you mean a "prong" collar?
I think you mean a "choke" collar if you are talking about links.
Small vs Large prong collar?
What are better to use. A thin or thick prong collar meaning one with small links (more links) or a bigger one with big links (less links). Which ones will a dog be more sensitive too and which one is not as harsh?
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prong=pinch=removable linksHi Samuel
Are you sure you mean a "prong" collar?
I think you mean a "choke" collar if you are talking about links.
depends on the use, the dog, the fur, Samuel, but I prefer a smaller link for most things. I like a medium size for shorter hair dogs like mals.
others may like different.
Depends on the dogs body sensitivity.
prong=pinch=removable links
depends on the use, the dog, the fur, Samuel, but I prefer a smaller link for most things. I like a medium size for shorter hair dogs like mals.
others may like different.
Yes I mean a pinch collar yes. The reason I'm asking is because I started conditioning my doberman to leash pressure on a bigger sized one and he yields to the pressure with the slightest movements. Even his very first conditioning session was like this. I thought maybe I should get him a smaller one as this one seems kind of cruel, but then I heard the ones with more prongs in them (the thinner ones) are actually more intense in terms of pain. When Teaching a dog to walk on a loose leash rather than pulling is it necessary to use the live ring?
It is not necessary to use a prong at all.
I've got lots to learn. In the new "leash skills" DVD with michael ellis he says to use a pinch collar firstly to teach the dog leash pressure. One of the things he also teaches is to teach a dog to walk on a loose leash and it's taught the with pinch collar!!It is not necessary to use a prong at all.
Think of it this way, Pressure = Force/Area. Imagine Pressure is what the dog feels when the prong is activated, force is supplied by you hand on the leash connected to live ring. Area is the cross section of the prong link. Lets say the large/thick prong is a 2 area and a small size prong is a 1 area.What are better to use. A thin or thick prong collar meaning one with small links (more links) or a bigger one with big links (less links). Which ones will a dog be more sensitive too and which one is not as harsh?
Now you apply the same force in both cases (say 10). Now calculate pressure for both cases,
Pressure (big prong) = 10/2 = 5
Pressure (small prong) = 10/1 = 10
So with a small prong the correction will be much harsher if the same force is used. You can make the pressure equal in both cases but then you will have to reduce force in half to 5 for the small prong.
I must admit I have trouble with the English terms here.
We have prong collars with a chain link in between. We used to remove the chain link so that the prongs are 100% in the collar.
Some like a prong collar with its original chain link attached, so that this can be used on the dog when in the car and travelling, i.e. it lies loosely round the dog's neck. When working, one can "tie it back" so that the chain is ineffective. The prong / pinch collar has had very bad publicity. The idea of the prong / pinch collar is not to enforce pain on the dog but to make him aware of your presence, i.e. to gain his attention.
With the type of prong collar I use, this only needs a gentle tug, followed by vocal praise when the dog looks up at you. I will not get into such discussion here. If anyone is interested, PM me.
Obviously there are situations where the prong collar is useful in daily life and where it is often used to stop the dog from engaging in "canine warfare".
All I can say is, the blunt prong collars are as effective or as useful as the "choke" collar.
We have prong collars with a chain link in between. We used to remove the chain link so that the prongs are 100% in the collar.
Some like a prong collar with its original chain link attached, so that this can be used on the dog when in the car and travelling, i.e. it lies loosely round the dog's neck. When working, one can "tie it back" so that the chain is ineffective. The prong / pinch collar has had very bad publicity. The idea of the prong / pinch collar is not to enforce pain on the dog but to make him aware of your presence, i.e. to gain his attention.
With the type of prong collar I use, this only needs a gentle tug, followed by vocal praise when the dog looks up at you. I will not get into such discussion here. If anyone is interested, PM me.
Obviously there are situations where the prong collar is useful in daily life and where it is often used to stop the dog from engaging in "canine warfare".
All I can say is, the blunt prong collars are as effective or as useful as the "choke" collar.
Generally the medium size pinch / prong collar is the best combination of durability vs. Effective correction for a working dog. Go bigger/thicker and you have a less effective correction but a more durable collar.... go thinner and you have a more effective correction but a more fragile collar.
I would take issue with the word "harsh" being associated with the collar... like any tool, it can be use correctly or abused.
I would take issue with the word "harsh" being associated with the collar... like any tool, it can be use correctly or abused.
This I do not understand apart from the last paragraph which I fully agree with.Generally the medium size pinch / prong collar is the best combination of durability vs. Effective correction for a working dog. Go bigger/thicker and you have a less effective correction but a more durable collar.... go thinner and you have a more effective correction but a more fragile collar.
I would take issue with the word "harsh" being associated with the collar... like any tool, it can be use correctly or abused.
You also have to divide by the number of links in the collar as it is the total area that is important, which is equal to the number of prongs times the prong cross sectional area.Think of it this way, Pressure = Force/Area. Imagine Pressure is what the dog feels when the prong is activated, force is supplied by you hand on the leash connected to live ring. Area is the cross section of the prong link. Lets say the large/thick prong is a 2 area and a small size prong is a 1 area.
Now you apply the same force in both cases (say 10). Now calculate pressure for both cases,
Pressure (big prong) = 10/2 = 5
Pressure (small prong) = 10/1 = 10
So with a small prong the correction will be much harsher if the same force is used. You can make the pressure equal in both cases but then you will have to reduce force in half to 5 for the small prong.
The smaller diameter links also are much shorter.
http://www.hayeshausdogtraining.com/dogfoodsupplies/hermsprengerdogcollars.html
Therefore, for the same neck diameter, you will have more links for a smaller diameter prong than a larger one. I don't know if this is a wash in terms of pressure, but it certainly isn't a 2 : 1 scaling with prong cross sectional area.
The preference is also a strong function of how thick your dog's coat is...you can always sharpen a large diameter prong if needed, but a small diameter prong may be too short to effectively get through a thicker coat.
I have Rotties and I always used the small link. Then one day when I was at a lesson my trainer noted that corrections were not having much effect on my male Rott. She suggested a larger but not the largest link. It made a huge difference. He noticed corrections and was more biddable.
Denise King
Denise King
Tie a pinch collar around your own tigh and learn what you are talking about.It is not the digging in the skin that most people believe but the actual pinch from the points moving towards each other.
Your tigh would be a lot more sensitive then a dogs neck.
While you are at it also put a n e-collar around your neck,and let your wife handle the buttons next time you go shopping lol.
Your tigh would be a lot more sensitive then a dogs neck.
While you are at it also put a n e-collar around your neck,and let your wife handle the buttons next time you go shopping lol.
I started out using the larger links but moved to the medium sized ones and find they are nicer to use and easier to adjust... the dogs seem to respond a little better to them as well...
before you decide which one to use ... know how to use it properly and what makes it effective. I see these things misused out of ignorance more than any other tool .
have someone who knows how to use one and WHAT to use it for. Have them teach you how to put the collar on and fit it correctly ... then learn how to use it to gain maximum effect out of it.
have someone who knows how to use one and WHAT to use it for. Have them teach you how to put the collar on and fit it correctly ... then learn how to use it to gain maximum effect out of it.
Exactly! I can agree 110% with Brian here.before you decide which one to use ... know how to use it properly and what makes it effective. I see these things misused out of ignorance more than any other tool .
have someone who knows how to use one and WHAT to use it for. Have them teach you how to put the collar on and fit it correctly ... then learn how to use it to gain maximum effect out of it.
Faisal is right as well from a technical point his explanation is bang on about the force required between the 2 different size links in the collars.
As for which is best. It more boils down to the dog that is in front of you. Whether you go with small or larger link IMO.
With Malinois you will be looking at either the 2.25mm link size or the 3.25mm size. I have used both. The 2.25mm is extreme power steering just because of surface area as per what Faisal said. Issues with a 2.25mm, the links and plate connectors are much more easily bent out of shape with accidents like stepping on the collar say if you drop it out of the back of your vehicle. The 3.25mm is more sturdy but the correction is not as sharp as the 2.25mm. The links on the 3.25 can be bent too though with enough abuse.
Another thing with the 2.25mm is, out of the box it doesn't fit the average Malinois 16-17" neck without buying extra links. With the 3.25mm I take 4 links out from what comes from the Sprenger factory, so again that makes the correction have less of a effect.
Another thing I would only go with Sprenger nothing else. Stainless Steel with regular use should last you a lifetime. Curogan looks nice but some say it doesn't hold up as well as it is a softer metal than SS, it has worked well for me though. Stay away from chrome plate as they can cause skin allergy reactions.
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