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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Spawned from one of Jeff's threads...what do you think are the signs of a truly driven dog? The one who constantly barks high-pitched, jumping up and down at the end of the backtie wanting to get at the decoy? Would you judge a dog's drive by the way he strikes vs. his overall energy (hard to describe, but some dogs will snap like a snake as soon as you get within their reach or throw themselves at the prey from all angles)...etcetera. I've seen what some people describe as a dog with good drives be turned down as nothing special by another, so I'd like to see some input on this.
 

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I think I'm setting myself up here for jabs, hope not :lol:

I think of drive as showing most in this way: a wolf sneaks up quietly and then gets close enough to chase, catch and kill - high drive. A cat silently creeps along the grass to pounce on a mouse, bite and kill and eat it (after lots of tossing it in the air play) - high drive. A hawk floats above quietly and then dives to catch, kill and eat - high drive. Sure it's a drive for food, but still a drive, and the way they behave during that drive is what I like to see in a puppy. I trust the silent, tenacious, and forward action more as an indication, than the "overly stimulated" actions. In sport dogs, the stimulation is learned, but the birth genetics would probably show a more silent type of prey action. I think that the Protection dog training to key up the dog on an alert is trained as a useful tool in scaring the would be attacker off. Also, holding back a dog/puppy from it's prey is the one way of building that barking reaction, so it's hard to determine what real prey is in there, because the dog has been trained to perform it's natural prey behaviour the way man wants it to.
Even being fenced in a kennel, the dog will learn to bark keyed up when he can't get to the prey on the outside of the fence. This is because the fence is not a natural environment in the genetic makeup of any prey animal.
 

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Liz Monty said:
I think I'm setting myself up here for jabs, hope not :lol:
You have alot to learn, between this post and your post on tug work I'm wondering if you know anything about dog training? Do you DO any training? What for and who with?
 

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Lyn Chen said:
The one who constantly barks high-pitched, jumping up and down at the end of the backtie wanting to get at the decoy? Would you judge a dog's drive by the way he strikes vs. his overall energy (hard to describe, but some dogs will snap like a snake as soon as you get within their reach or throw themselves at the prey from all angles)...etcetera.
As I said, it's hard to know the dogs real natural drive, because they have already been trained to perform in a barking, jumping and pulling at lead behaviour, when they are already at the point that someone is asking how good their drive is

All I did was take the question further back in time, to a puppy and it's natural behaviour. Can any one of you show a video of a puppy that has not yet been tied, held or fenced back from it's prey?????? I would like to see that pup barking all over the place instead of chasing down the prey in silence. How the heck can drive be rated by barking or being tied or being held back. IT CANNOT
Take the damn dog to the woods and let it go, then you will see how much prey it has. Prey is different than confidence or dominance - so how a dog acts on a controlled field in a training manupulated field, does not let you know what the dog really has in the way of prey. UNLESS of course the dog shows NO interest or LITTLE interest in the GAME. You guys are all talking about sport training and developing an action that resembles Prey and Drive

I'll say it again. You cannot determine the dog's real prey drive after it has been exposed to the drive building.
 

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And at what year did a dog's genetics decide that a man in a bitesuit or a tug toy was prey to EAT. Sorry, you trained them to chase man, you made it a game with the ends of a purpose - BITE MAN on command, BARK at MAN on command.

Good Purpose, YES, Show dogs Drive, NO

Sport Drive is not and never will be a natural measure of Drive. BUTTTTT, sport DEFENCE and FIGHT while on the decoy and being truly threatened will be a measure of "FIGHT" NOT PREY

Take that to the hand Jeff and Mike.
 

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Lyn Chen said:
The one who constantly barks high-pitched, jumping up and down at the end of the backtie wanting to get at the decoy? (hard to describe, but some dogs will snap like a snake as soon as you get within their reach or throw themselves at the prey from all angles)...etcetera. I've seen what some people describe as a dog with good drives be turned down as nothing special by another, so I'd like to see some input on this.
The way I read it, most definately
 

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Well obviously the way you read it, or you wouldn't have responded with all that, I wasn't asking you, I was asking the original poster since it was her question to begin with. Her question sounds more like she's asking about drives in the way we relate to them in bitework not in the way a monkey chases a running banana.
 

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Liz has IMO a very valid point. She took the rebukes on the chin, and hung on...

Obviously, obviously, a high drive dog will exclude other stimuli when focused on his desire; will persist in the pursuit of his desire; will show anxiety if the desire is unfulfilled.

If you consider what Don Turnipseed does with his dogs...almost no training...you'll see a good REAL measure of drive(s). In puppies also. But in a dog that has ample foundation, how much of what you see is natural and how much is "developed"? I don't know. Frequently one hears - and says - "The dog suddenly turned on!". Was it there already, was it learned, how much of each... But it's a very valid point.

Would a dog naturally be "ball crazy", carry a Kong in his mouth all day, or spin, spin, spin in anticipation of a bite?

The only time I think about a dog's "drive" is when I'm picking a puppy. After that, I forget the meaning of the word and start educating.

:lol:
 

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I think the potential/genetics for high drive has to be there.
Same as Don with his airedales, That pretty much how we start earth work with terriers. You can't train a dog to go into a 6inch, pitch black, 20-30ft long, winding hole if the potential/genetics aren't there.
Doing it wrong and pumping up a young dog will only get his a$$ chewed up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
All replies worth thinking about...my original question is related to bitework, naturally, it just seems like prey drive is a lot more complicated than we give it credit for, so I thought I'd ask to see what people have to say about it. Valid points about how prey drive can be 'taught'...we know there are two schools of thought when it comes to puppies, teach them early or let the real dog come out when he's older? If prey drive becomes a conditioned response, can it still be a fair evaluation of a dog?
 

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In the context of bitework, the only prey drive I care about is that which can be directed at a prey item or a helper. If a dog's drive can't be chanelled towards a helper, what do I care about how the dog would naturally stalk a squirrel?
Obviously the dog's training history has to be taken into account if you're evaluating it, but a dog's commitment and excitement in bitework is (IMO) more indicative of "good" prey drive than a dog's natural hunting tendancies.

Simon
 

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Liz Monty said:
Take the damn dog to the woods and let it go, then you will see how much prey it has. Prey is different than confidence or dominance - so how a dog acts on a controlled field in a training manupulated field, does not let you know what the dog really has in the way of prey. UNLESS of course the dog shows NO interest or LITTLE interest in the GAME. You guys are all talking about sport training and developing an action that resembles Prey and Drive
Simon,

I basically said the same thing. If you are applying PreyDrive to the sport.
 

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<<<so I'd like to see some input on this.>>>

I dont like getting into word games, so I'll keep my input short. For me it's the eyes and the posture. All the barking and jumping regardless of the pitch is just so much fluff.

I'll also say, and not to be mean, just an observation, Ms Monty, you really have a lot to learn. That's not a bad thing. Learning does require one to ask questions. I don't really know how to say this, your questions often demonstrate a real lack of knowledge. I can understand why it's difficult for you to get an answer at times. It's almost as if you are doing it intentionally to get smart ass remarks.

Please understand I'm not saying this as a moderator, but as a contributor to a thread.

DFrost
 

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Quote: If prey drive becomes a conditioned response, can it still be a fair evaluation of a dog?

Ok, Ok, we have to stop for a second.

Prey drive is a conditioned response? NOOOOOOO it is an instinct. What you are trying to do with a dog is reach the upper threshold and reward that to get the most out of a dog that is less than spectacular.

A dog with good drive doesn't need drive building. Anything less is NOT good drives and you are behind the 8 ball.

A dog with high drives, you can't imagine doing drive work with for the life of you.



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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Jeff, I was referring to the 'bark bark bark leap leap leap' response that is created in a lot of sport dogs, and seems to be what many are calling 'high drive' these days...I distinctly remember being advised to 'build drive' by moving a toy when a dog barks, and so on. Not that it ever worked for my dog. He stared at me blankly and slept. :evil:
 

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Lyn Chen said:
I was referring to the 'bark bark bark leap leap leap' response that is created in a lot of sport dogs, and seems to be what many are calling 'high drive' these days...
You can tell a high drive dog to sit down and shut up without any impact in the work performance... if the work suffers the dog probably needs more drive.
 
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