Should the average dog owner have a GSD?
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I missed the breed $hittalking, I really did. :roll:Joe Jones said:
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You know, Joe, you seem to have an awful lot of animosity. It's not exactly productive to discussion...Joe Jones said:
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...which I admit I hijacked, anyways. Sorry for my rambling. I guess in short that there's a pretty steep learning curve for working breeds that would make them bad for the average owner.Stacia Porter said:
But, just for the sake of argument, I would say the same thing about a Border Collie, Lab, many hunting breeds (which yap up a storm in my neighborhood because they only go out of their kennels three times a year), etc...I guess a working breed can go wrong in a bigger way than some of those breeds, but a nutty Border Collie can be pretty tough on its entire environment.
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No animosity here at all. I jsut happen to think that the GSD is an average breed all around. Not particularly hard to handle, usually intelligent, but not overly so. Not particularly dominant, about average there. Even if drivey, can calm in the house to an average level. Loyal, but not particularly pack possessive. So, if an average Joe is looking for an average dog, a GSD is a good choice. An average Joe should not get a malinois, a Jack Russell, a lab, or anything above or below average in any important category. A good GSD is good average dog for an average person. What in there contains animous?
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What you just posted is probably what you may have tried posting in the first place. Just a thought.Joe Jones said:
Edited to say...keep in mind some GSDs have fight drive. Mals and Dutchies do not.
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We're weak-kneed and nervy, that's why we gravitate towards GSDs. The fight drive comment was a joke, completely.Joe Jones said:
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I would like people to explore this sentiment--I can honestly say I have never heard anyone say these things about sound German Shepherds. Maybe in relation to Mals in PSD/sporting environments relative to their drives and aggression, but nope, never heard anyone question the GSD's intelligence. Best analogy I have heard is that a GSD is second-best at everything which is still a few notches above what your average owner can handle.Joe Jones said:
Edited to say I will be very, very disappointed if Lou, Jerry, Bob and company leave this hanging! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Do you think that GSD's, overall are hard to handle? I happen to think that they are not. In fact, they seem to me very tractable.Woody Taylor said:
I happen to think they are intelligent, but no so much so that it gets in the way of being trained. They are not overanalyzers, nor are they big cost/benefit animals.
I don't happen to think that they are very dominant as an overall breed. Try living with a working, unneutered male rottweiler if you want to see what dominance is all about. I don't get that from the GSD breed. Of course, people will always say this about this dog, and that about that dog, but overall, I don't see the GSD as a dominant breed.
And, if drivey, do you think that they can't calm in the house? Try living with a wired malinois for a week to redfine drivey and wired. No, I think tha tthe GSD, largely like the Rott can possess good drive, yet be a good housedog.
Relax Woody, I'm not slamming your breed. Read what I am saying.
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My guess is that experienced dog handlers find them both tractable and without animous, generally speaking. That's not what the thread is focused on. The thread is focused on average joe owner, whose knowledge of dogs might extend to the person at Petsmart telling them to try out a Gentle Leader for their leash-pulling problems.Joe Jones said:
I already talked about higher-edge dogs upthread...Mals, Dutchies, your Rott, I will readily admit are even worse for this environment.
You need to reread your statements. You didn't talk explicitly about dominance and rank drive, etc. You talked about basic intelligence and drives. Big difference. That's why I responded to your post as I did.
I still am saying though, because the GSD is not to the extreme in any particular category that would really effect an average owner, like rank, drive, and all that we have just talked about, the GSD would make a good fit for an average owner. I certainly don't thik it would be a disaster waiting to happen like giving a no prior experience family a mal or rottweiler puppy for christmas. The GSd is an excellent generalist, that is why is has been the overwhelming choice for PD's.
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And I'm not smart enough to say one way or the other, but again, I'll point out that you are about five planets away from how you initiated yourself into this thread ("why not, an average breed for an average person seems to fit just fine"). I am cool with any claims about other breeds being worse. A fila or Tosa or a serious LGD or a rank drive APBT would be worse than a Mal or a Rott. IMHO.Joe Jones said:
Probably, but I don't have any experience with those breeds to say so. I do with GSD's, Mals and Rotts. I've also got a nasty little super dominant pit/mal bitch that is a special case in and of herself. But as to the other breeds, can't contribute there.
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High drive dogs should be owned by, in my humble, amateur opinion, by those that understand and expect this in the dog and who are experienced or at least devoted to seeing that the dog is properly trained and exercised. An average "pet" dog owner are sometimes in over their heads with a lazy basset hound and are leagues under the sea when it comes to a JRT or a Mal.
However, I will tell you that my working GSD, who does have a ton of drive, is much easier to handle than my "pet" American line female GSD. And this sort of touches on another thread I started about dogs being a reflection of their owners. In my case which is true, the working line GSD that I just titled in ASR or the nervy, somewhat disobedient American GSD?
I will tell you for a fact that my GSD with a ton of drive is far, far easier for even myself to handle than my American GSD. The answer to this is, I think two-fold. One, the working line dog is made to please. The other dog is of pet quality only and, with her poor nerves, is more difficult to control. And with all of the crap dogs out there, and there are countless, I am of the opinion that a working dog is much easier to handle than the average dingbat dog.
However, I will tell you that my working GSD, who does have a ton of drive, is much easier to handle than my "pet" American line female GSD. And this sort of touches on another thread I started about dogs being a reflection of their owners. In my case which is true, the working line GSD that I just titled in ASR or the nervy, somewhat disobedient American GSD?
I will tell you for a fact that my GSD with a ton of drive is far, far easier for even myself to handle than my American GSD. The answer to this is, I think two-fold. One, the working line dog is made to please. The other dog is of pet quality only and, with her poor nerves, is more difficult to control. And with all of the crap dogs out there, and there are countless, I am of the opinion that a working dog is much easier to handle than the average dingbat dog.
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This makes sense to me, along with the fourth or fifth revision of Joe's comments...with the caveat that the "average owner" engage and exercise the dog (the way an intelligent dog like a GSD should be). Then I'm totally onboard with the notion that a well-bred GSD would make a great pet.Patrick Murray said:
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This was how it sounded to me too. I'm not breed-obsessed, but I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that a sound GSD was "an average dog for the average owner........" in this context. I dunno -- did I totally misread (along with Stacia and Woody)?Woody Taylor said:
Original post quote: "I don't mean just a pet home, I mean the average Purina-feeding-no-obedience-training-want-a-pooch-who-will-sleep-all-day owners."
This was the post Joe stated he was answering, with "Well, to answer the original question. Sure, why not, an average breed for an average person seems to fit just fine."
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So, yeah, I'll bite. The GSD is fine with the average owner. After Owning and breeding Rotts for ten years, GSD's are cupcakes.
PLUS, as an added bonus, you are not taking into account the fact that very very few GSD's are working dogs, or should I say even qualified to be working dogs. Most just want to hang out with you.
I really do not find the average GSD to be brilliant by any means, I have trained an awful lot of dumbazz ones for sure. Nice enough if you like that sort of thing, but honestly, CULLS.
I think the actual numbers for dogs that can title are probably less than 15%, but show people screw that number up with their non-stop breeding and 50,000$$$$$ dogs. Be kinda interesting to know.
To reiterate, Joe owns Rotts, which are NOT NOT NOT for the average dog owner, PITA that they can be. GSD's are perfectly OK for an average owner.
PLUS, as an added bonus, you are not taking into account the fact that very very few GSD's are working dogs, or should I say even qualified to be working dogs. Most just want to hang out with you.
I really do not find the average GSD to be brilliant by any means, I have trained an awful lot of dumbazz ones for sure. Nice enough if you like that sort of thing, but honestly, CULLS.
I think the actual numbers for dogs that can title are probably less than 15%, but show people screw that number up with their non-stop breeding and 50,000$$$$$ dogs. Be kinda interesting to know.
To reiterate, Joe owns Rotts, which are NOT NOT NOT for the average dog owner, PITA that they can be. GSD's are perfectly OK for an average owner.
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