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I was getting into a designer dog breed debate over on another more pet oriented forum a while back. I said that for 95% of dog owners who just want a nice pet, they should be able to get a nice dog from either a shelter or from a responsible breeder, not from some yahoo making a buck off the designer breed of the month. There is no point in this wild crossing of all the toy and small terrier breeds because they are companion dogs and frankly, most of them look pretty similar to me anyways. I said that the only intentional cross breeding I would support is for crosses like Alaskan huskies in sledding and Dutchie/Mal/etc crosses where they are for an actual working purpose. Then someone countered my argument by saying that not that many people use Alaskan huskies for more than recreational or competition racing, so it's not "real" work. So if all you do is ring sport or Schutzhund with your Dutch/Mal cross, I guess they wouldn't consider than "real" work. Then they asked about intentional crosses in serious agility and flyball like the border collie/Jack Russell mixes for height dogs.

So my question that I pondered is this: at what point (if any) and for what purpose should intentional cross breeding be considered legit? Does a sport have to have a certain amount of "seriousness" or "realism" for it to be considered okay? i.e.-protection sports and dog sledding are because of x reason, but flyball and agility aren't because of y reason.
 

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I guess if there was a "legitimate" need and breeds of dogs could be combined to come up with one ideal breed best suited to address the need then I guess it could be justified.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That was kind of my thought. Just what is a legitimate purpose? Can I rightly condemn someone who wants a poo mix while not minding a Mal/Dutch shepherd cross as long as it serves some sort of purpose, even if it is just to have fun getting titles?
 

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Some yrs back Dalmation breeders (with AKC approval) bred English Pointers into theirdog to help eliminate serious genetic liver problems. All it dod, from what I recall, was to create other problems they didn't cinsider. Same with the Basenji. Crosses with half wild, African village dogs to widen the gene pool had the same results. Health problems they didn't forsee. The Basenji did get a nice brindle color added to their standards. :roll:
 

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Maren Bell Jones said:
That was kind of my thought. Just what is a legitimate purpose? Can I rightly condemn someone who wants a poo mix while not minding a Mal/Dutch shepherd cross as long as it serves some sort of purpose, even if it is just to have fun getting titles?
Well, it's a free country, people are free to do what they want.

Having said that, xbreeding within the context of service sport ( I don't like saying "protection" anymore as it's not inclusive enough or specific enough), is a different ball game...in an ideal world.

Ideally, service sport should feed legitimate service application. Meaning, the goal of national sport governance should be directed towards developing out skills that are then translated to actual work for humans. Sledding, biting, tracking, obedience, etc. It would be a great day when there was some kind of metric (tied to service application of the titled stock) that various sports used to guage the effectiveness of their overall program, something that would allow for club-level newbs and hobbyists but distinguish professional application. Those metrics should also drive breeding guidelines, etc. and might highlight the need for xbreeding...e.g., Ring Mals are getting too small, we need bigger Mals...or Shepherds are getting to big/weak, we need...and so on.

So anyways, KNPV is a good example of "ethical" xbreeding because the goal is to develop a gene pool of dogs that eventually translate to service work.

I realize what I'm describing above would take intelligence, creativity, honesty, and progress on the part of national sport leadership as well as involve interest and "pull" from law enforcement leadership, so I'm not holding my breath.

Flyball terriers--breeding 14.5" at the shoulder JRTs down to 12.5" so the overall jump height is lowered for the team, or whatever nonsense they do, I forget--is worlds away from what I'm describing here. And a few degrees of "goodness," as xbreeding in that situation is done for dogs that are ultimately entertaining humans rather than working for them. The same logic would apply to other types of breeding...breeding for conformation, for debilitation (bulldogs, pugs), for whatever, all that lame crap that basically boils down to somebody just wanting a material object to impress the Joneses down the street.
 

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"Well, it's a free country, people are free to do what they want."

That pretty much said it all. Besides, it was the only part I understood unlees I wanted to keep ciphering a frew more times. There is a need,or an expectation, that everyone follow suit to our way of thinking because we are always right. We think!
 

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Don Turnipseed said:
Besides, it was the only part I understood unlees I wanted to keep ciphering a frew more times.
I didn't really understand it either!

I will point out that the world would be a lot more efficient if everyone thought like me, though. I'm just sayin'.
 

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Woody Taylor said:
... I will point out that the world would be a lot more efficient if everyone thought like me, though. I'm just sayin'.
Oh, we all say that all the time....... PMs, letters to the editor....... It's always "Why doesn't everyone just think like Woody?!"
 

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i don't see anything wrong with cross breeding for a specific purpose. if that purpose is to build the largest, fastest dog within a given class for flyball....why not? as long as others are breeding for what i want (KNPV), why not let the flyball people create a super ball breed? is the resistance to this just for the sake of maintaining individual breeds? why is that such a big deal?
 

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This is how all the breeds came about to start with. Without someone being adventuresome, most of our breeds wouldn't be here. Does it hurt a an individual breed? No....there will always be enough people breeding to the standard to maintain any breed. The problem may be that the right cross bred dogs may be better than the purebred dogs and that could be a problem to a lot of people.
 

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Don Turnipseed said:
This is how all the breeds came about to start with. Without someone being adventuresome, most of our breeds wouldn't be here. Does it hurt a an individual breed? No....there will always be enough people breeding to the standard to maintain any breed. The problem may be that the right cross bred dogs may be better than the purebred dogs and that could be a problem to a lot of people.
i can see that argument. so basically it's purely politcal. "i don't want some mutt outperforming my purebred (insert breed here)". makes sense to me :roll:
 

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I don't know much about breeding dogs, took me a couple of years to figure out where my kids came from. I do however, know the type of dog I want to work with. It's why I only buy 18 months and up, based on behavior specific criteria. While health is certainly a primary concern, the dogs background is useless to me. Which by the way, these dogs are getting more and more expensive. The breeds we know today, mostly came from crossing something with something.

DFrost
 

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When outbreeding, normally two purebred lines are used. The potential to produce a few gangbuster dogs is enormous. The first cross pups have the potential to put either parent to shame. After that cross, they start back sliding to the norm over a period of time.
 

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I don't see any problem with cross-breeding to suit a specific purpose. Like others have said - that's how we got most of the "breeds" we have today. I have both purebreds(racing line siberians) and "crossbreds"(alaskan huskies). It is kind of humorous to have a six generation pedigree on dogs that look like they should be tied to an old washing machine on someone's porch(the alaskans). If people want to Xbreed a better flyball dog I say go for it as long as they are being responsible about it.

I don't know if I agree with what Woody was saying as there were too many big words...... :oops: But it sounds way too organized for my liking - and too much like what is already in place.
 

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I think it has to pass the "stink" test. Those who make "designer breeds" have a definite odor to those of us who know bull$hit when we smell it. That's exactly why their dogs are marketed to first time/impulse/trendy dog buyers who have not developed a keen sense of smell.
 

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The problem with the designer breeds is that they aren't breeding toward any type of performance goal other than the performance of their bank account. It's not like "OK lets breed a malidoodle because I think it'll make the malinois even smarter"... because typically they are using the dumbest damn breeding stock to begin with anyway :lol: The Germans would probably send their dogs on me if I went to Germany and asked Knut Fuchs if we could start breeding Malidoodles using Klemm vom Roten Falken lines :lol:

KNPV "did it right" IMO... because even though the dogs are crosses... it's not really very random, because the lines are tracked and bred on to create a whole new set of lines. Look at Selena and Dick's dogs... they are on their, what, 6th generation in their line? If not more? And if you look at the "pedigrees" to the best crosses, you will usually find certain names cropping up more than others. I don't know much about the Flyball community, but I can't really imagine that it's a very tightknit community where they are all trying to develop crosses using the best Flyball dogs and continuing specific lines that are all tracked and tracable to the original purebred dogs they originated from. Granted not all KNPV dogs can be tracked all the way back to their first crossing... but you generally have a pretty good idea of where the dogs have come from for the past 10 generations in the pedigrees.
 

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125 years ago, dogs were expected to carry their weight. Serve a purpose. Guard flocks, hunt, protect. It didn't matter what really but there had to be some benefit to paying the upkeep on a dog. It wasn't hard to find a good working dog in those days.

Those days are gone. The most prolific breeding programs are geared to producing "pets". That is what todays society has come to. Dogs are now, "Make me feel good" objects. Cock-a-poodles, labra-doodles or what ever. They are different. Everyone has a lab, or a golden retriever. People want(need) something to make them appear different even though society has digressed to the point of universal similarity. The day of the individual is dying, but we still have the need to "appear" different. Thus the designer dogs. Eventually, there will be no working dogs, just pets. All elevated to a god like status that deserves to have the same laws protecting them as protect our children. What do you think about that Woody? If everyone thought like me it would be a great place to live. We would all be responsible for our own actions and survival. Society didn't make me what I am....the internet did because one must conform to join in. Woody can take it from here. :lol:
 

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Not sure I understand what you meant, relative to me. My guess is your sentiments about how dogs have changed are, among other reasons, part of why Maren is asking what she's asking.
 

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""Well, it's a free country, people are free to do what they want."

This may have been what sent me off in my anti social tyrade Woody. Yes, there was a day that statement held some truth. Today, it is just a feel good phrase that makes people feel incharge of their lives. What is the purpose of having an in depth discussion on whether it is right or wrong to cross a lab and a poodle? Is it unethical? If so, according to whose ethics? Is it against the law? No it isn't. Is it wrong for anyone to cross breed for designer dogs if there is a market? Not really. But, here we are discussing the wrongs and right because some don't beleive they should be doing it. I watch legislators attempting to pass legislation regarding breeding and how it should be done on a daily basis. Long Beach passed an ordinace that you couldn't breed a dog in the city limits because someone didn't like it. Do we really want to be any more governed by peoples whims and individual codes of ethics any more than we already are? Do we all have to think alike to avoid being chastised by others. Who cares if someone breeds labradoodles and someone else pays big bucks for them. If you don't like it, don't do it. If your comment was true

"Well, it's a free country, people are free to do what they want."

They wouldn't. The comment no longer has any meaning. Everyone is expected to be like everyone else.
 

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Tax season brings out the conservatives in all of us.
 
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