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I had a great question PM'd to me by a forum member last night...who wanted it put out for discussion.
Well, PP trainers and owners, what do you think?
(see PPD Screening thread)
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FWIW, I think this is a pretty interesting topic, I have a lot of reservations myself about the notion that John Q. Public can go out and buy "out of the box" PP dogs w/o being thoroughly screened by the trainer/broker....I still remember all those "TimberShepherd" ads in those dumb mercenary magazines like Soldier of Fortune I used to read when I was a kid...they are pretty creepy to think about now. I guess those TimberShepherd ads have been replaced by Thunderbird Ovcharkas and stuff. Not sure which would be worse for a dumb owner to have. At least the hybrid would probably run off and go feral...
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Quote:I still remember all those "TimberShepherd" ads in those dumb mercenary magazines like Soldier of Fortune I used to read when I was a kid.
It is all coming clear now.
:twisted:
At some point, you sell the idiots the dog that puts on a good show, but is full of shit. Business will always come over ethics here.
I am sure people still think that there are "good" PP dogs out there, but if I am breeding dogs and I have a chance between giving a dog a good home doing Mondio, or relagating my puppy to the bowels of PP............. PP ain't getting squat.
PP attracts some interesting characters.
It is all coming clear now.
:twisted: At some point, you sell the idiots the dog that puts on a good show, but is full of shit. Business will always come over ethics here.
I am sure people still think that there are "good" PP dogs out there, but if I am breeding dogs and I have a chance between giving a dog a good home doing Mondio, or relagating my puppy to the bowels of PP............. PP ain't getting squat.
PP attracts some interesting characters.
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I would guess. I dont' get it, myself, seems like an awfully failure-prone thing to put in your house and "protect" you. But I think that's what the person was wondering...what kinds of people show up, and what kinds of screening is done. Jeff my guess is you have taken multiple MMPIs :twisted: but you all as PP trainers probably aren't requiring them of your customers.Jeff Oehlsen said:
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Sure Woody, I sit around in my spare time and take tests. Ever take a high level psych course??? I got laid all the time in college by taking those classes. Great stuff, hot chicks that do........ Oh GOD I miss those days :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ok, so here is something else to think about. Knowing the people that take those classes, why the "F" would you listen to them???? Hell, I took those classes and used to look around and think, these people are gonna tell others whats wrong with them? And then I bust out laughing in class.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Ok, so here is something else to think about. Knowing the people that take those classes, why the "F" would you listen to them???? Hell, I took those classes and used to look around and think, these people are gonna tell others whats wrong with them? And then I bust out laughing in class.
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I wasn't suggesting that you had taken them voluntarily, of course. That would be dumb! More of a kind of...."managed clinical environment" where you were "encouraged" to take a test like that every now and then. And where you learned to hate ecollars and avoidance training. But to love working for food rewards!
But seriously, have you ever told someone they could not buy/have a PP dog you were selling, or they were wanting you to train up? What was the circumstance?
Still hoping others will jump in, btw. Al? Andres?
But seriously, have you ever told someone they could not buy/have a PP dog you were selling, or they were wanting you to train up? What was the circumstance?
Still hoping others will jump in, btw. Al? Andres?
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PP dog threads are dumb, wanabees that want to talk trash about how good their dogs are, but can't prove it.
I like e-collars, I just know that most trainers have shit timing, and are basically worthless with an e-collar. Avoidance training? Again, wrong guy. I use it, but I am not some guy with a pet shepherd wondering were to get equipment. I came up in a time that people didn't tell you stuff right away, 'cause you were too fuckin% dumb to use it properly. Then along comes the internet, and POOF, all these people who have maybe an hours worth of training experience are commenting on shit they will never understand. NEVER. Does that help you out?
Can I make it more clear to anyone? People read this stuff, people that do not post or ask questions, they run out and try it. They are the people that hear, or read everything but the common sense part. CLEAN UP THE OUT ON THE TABLE. That is all they will see. Not the experience, just the out part. E-collars the same thing. All they see is someone fixed a dog with one. So enough with the BS. You don't know me, cause I don't let you. I just try to keep people from abusing dogs too badly. Most dog people are dumb as a box of rocks. TRY AND REMEMBER THAT.
I like e-collars, I just know that most trainers have shit timing, and are basically worthless with an e-collar. Avoidance training? Again, wrong guy. I use it, but I am not some guy with a pet shepherd wondering were to get equipment. I came up in a time that people didn't tell you stuff right away, 'cause you were too fuckin% dumb to use it properly. Then along comes the internet, and POOF, all these people who have maybe an hours worth of training experience are commenting on shit they will never understand. NEVER. Does that help you out?
Can I make it more clear to anyone? People read this stuff, people that do not post or ask questions, they run out and try it. They are the people that hear, or read everything but the common sense part. CLEAN UP THE OUT ON THE TABLE. That is all they will see. Not the experience, just the out part. E-collars the same thing. All they see is someone fixed a dog with one. So enough with the BS. You don't know me, cause I don't let you. I just try to keep people from abusing dogs too badly. Most dog people are dumb as a box of rocks. TRY AND REMEMBER THAT.
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As far as training someones dog, I don't anymore if I don't like the reason/person. Back in the day I would, but that is that weird business vs your ethics morals and common sense thing.
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That's exactly the same concerns a few of us had and still have, Jeff. I can send you the PMs. So it's good that you challenge the stuff you find abusive, stupid, or dangerous for idiots like me. Fact of the matter is I can go to any training disty you point me at and buy anything I want to destroy my dog, right next to the famous basic obedience stuff and the squeeky balls, and my guess is I could have a PP dog mailed to me in a few weeks if I wanted to make that happen, no questions asked. This thread is intended to talk about this kind of stuff.Jeff Oehlsen said:
You've posted the same warning to me before; I agree 100%. People reading this stuff should know their own limitations, or at least read deeply enough to start to identifying them. You want mine relative to this? PPDs? I never want anything to do with them and I think that most of the people I've met with an interest in one are the same folks who buy Glocks, throw them in the nightstand, and consider themselves ready for WWIII. I may be wrong--good thing we can discuss that issue here.
But relative to your concerns, this seems like a good opportunity for you to talk about why these types of animals are inappropriate for some (most?) people. As you have with table training and Rottweilers and ecollars and some other dog stuff.
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One more thing: I think it's bullshit and condescending to assume that people don't have a right to see this information, or that sharing it in the context of good-natured discussion is irresponsible. Give me a break. You want to make somebody want something really bad? Tell them they can't have it. Why do you think a newb dummy like me spends time at another forum (and this one) talking about what a pain in the ass it is to have a dog that, by your standards, would be culled? Let alone some rigged-up Mal guys like you would train out to be light weapons?
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Jeff, now would be a good time to tell the story about the "anal glands" dog. I asked Woody to pose this topic because I knew he would ask it right. I was wondering about it because of all the stuff I see on the net. Since I am a dinasoaur, the net is still pretty new to me. I have been a little shocked by all the pp stuff. I remember when people had to train their own dogs in schutzhund. I think one of the reasons was so that you would get people willing to do the obedience & the tracking, not just the protection. Sort of weeding out people that just wanted a scary dog. Has society changed so quickly or is just because so much information is so much easier to get?
Also, I am not trying to say the other sports are bad, so I hope nobody thinks that. I am wondering about those who breed, but don't title their dogs. Are they only selling to people who are knowledgable about their particular dogs? If the dogs aren't titled or judged, what happens in a breeding program?
I am hoping someone can help me to understand.
Thanks!
Also, I am not trying to say the other sports are bad, so I hope nobody thinks that. I am wondering about those who breed, but don't title their dogs. Are they only selling to people who are knowledgable about their particular dogs? If the dogs aren't titled or judged, what happens in a breeding program?
I am hoping someone can help me to understand.
Thanks!
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I remember the story, just can't use the search function. I don't remember the thread I put it in.
Once you have had a dog that enjoys working and does most everything well, the cool little cull kinda goes in the dumper. Wait till Lyka gets older. Mike will end up like all the rest of you that eventually get a good working dog. It takes so much time, and at first your heart and soul, that the other dog just stays home. If you work enough dogs, the heart and soul stays home too.
Once you have had a dog that enjoys working and does most everything well, the cool little cull kinda goes in the dumper. Wait till Lyka gets older. Mike will end up like all the rest of you that eventually get a good working dog. It takes so much time, and at first your heart and soul, that the other dog just stays home. If you work enough dogs, the heart and soul stays home too.
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Quote: I think it's bullshit and condescending to assume that people don't have a right to see this information
Your Goddamn right it is, and I have earned that right over 35 years of hacking away at dog training. You are damn skippy. WTF right do you have to free info with out any experience at all??? I haven't even seen what you can do with a regular dog, and you think you can comprehend avoidance training? E-collar training? Table training? You have lost your mind. Put the little cull up on a table, strap a E-collar on her neck, and do some avoidance training. Then call me ten minutes later when you don't have a clue how to put what these people have told you into practice. Then call me twenty minutes later when your cull is a vegetable, because she couldn't handle your "practical application" skills.
How many dogs have you trained? How many did you train well? How many have you screwed up? This is what makes a dog trainer, not some N00b that can spew theory, albeit incorrect the internet. This is the term "instant expert" and why the 'net is dangerous.
So there you go, I imagine this was something like what you were looking for. Too bad you suck as a dog trainer, imagine the really good firing ups you could get if you knew what to ask for real!!!!
Your Goddamn right it is, and I have earned that right over 35 years of hacking away at dog training. You are damn skippy. WTF right do you have to free info with out any experience at all??? I haven't even seen what you can do with a regular dog, and you think you can comprehend avoidance training? E-collar training? Table training? You have lost your mind. Put the little cull up on a table, strap a E-collar on her neck, and do some avoidance training. Then call me ten minutes later when you don't have a clue how to put what these people have told you into practice. Then call me twenty minutes later when your cull is a vegetable, because she couldn't handle your "practical application" skills.
How many dogs have you trained? How many did you train well? How many have you screwed up? This is what makes a dog trainer, not some N00b that can spew theory, albeit incorrect the internet. This is the term "instant expert" and why the 'net is dangerous.
So there you go, I imagine this was something like what you were looking for. Too bad you suck as a dog trainer, imagine the really good firing ups you could get if you knew what to ask for real!!!!
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Jeff, I think maybe you are missing a big point here.
The information is available. Period. Doesn't matter what "right" an inexperienced person all excited about training his first dog has to tricky, delicate, and experience-sensitive methods or equipment, because he can get it.
What this forum and others like it can do is the huge service (IMO) to dogs everywhere of pointing out over and over and over how much better it works to start with tried-and-true methods and equipment while gaining experience.
You, for example.......... you have the experience to say with authority how much damage can be done by an inexperienced trainer using a dicey method or tool.
Saying "I won't give this info" does exactly zero good, I think. Presenting the downside, *especially* with one's own negative experiences to back it up, is a real service.
The information is available. Period. Doesn't matter what "right" an inexperienced person all excited about training his first dog has to tricky, delicate, and experience-sensitive methods or equipment, because he can get it.
What this forum and others like it can do is the huge service (IMO) to dogs everywhere of pointing out over and over and over how much better it works to start with tried-and-true methods and equipment while gaining experience.
You, for example.......... you have the experience to say with authority how much damage can be done by an inexperienced trainer using a dicey method or tool.
Saying "I won't give this info" does exactly zero good, I think. Presenting the downside, *especially* with one's own negative experiences to back it up, is a real service.
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Kind of looks like the firing ups are pretty good on the ignorant stuff I'm posting? What happened to all your emoticons?
And no, you should not "protect" us idiots from information. You have an obligation (in my mind) to share it. In an accessible way. In my own opinion, you speak pretty well about dogs and provide great insights when you're not trying to show the girls in the back of the classroom your dead bug collection. I would trust you with my dog, if that makes any difference.
I wouldn't do any of the things (tables, ecollars) you suggest with my dog. That is because of what you and others have told me about them, and what I have learned here and elsewhere. If one year ago my breeder would have said she knew a guy who would train up my dog for $500 using some fast techniques like this "table" thing and this ecollar like they put on retrievers, no big deal, who knows what I might have done?
Now, carrying out your theory on idiot readers, the lurkers in this forum now understand that rattlesnakes make great pets, one can take many bites from them, and just twist off a neck when they are done. I can go buy that snake right now at Hot Herps. So tell me again about the dangers of pretending to be something you're not (or at least severely bullshitting to the point of silliness) in a forum like this? You have also explicitly talked about easy scoring with women in bullshit liberal arts courses at universities. That's one I can confirm. I have a degree in English.
And as far as that goes, you can look at my posting history...the only people I have ever given advice to (re: dogs) are people dumber than me making mistakes even I could identify. I do that because I was in their situation once, and I still am in their situation. Try to look at an instance of me giving advice where I had no business giving it.
And...I should probably point out that making me have "experience" before I deserve to get "info" from people like you drives the very behaviors and results you say you feel morally obligated to prevent. So Jeff...based on your logic...how many dogs do I have to break before I (or anyone else with a basic appreciation of working dogs) earn the right to get info from you? 1? 2? 500?
And no, you should not "protect" us idiots from information. You have an obligation (in my mind) to share it. In an accessible way. In my own opinion, you speak pretty well about dogs and provide great insights when you're not trying to show the girls in the back of the classroom your dead bug collection. I would trust you with my dog, if that makes any difference.
I wouldn't do any of the things (tables, ecollars) you suggest with my dog. That is because of what you and others have told me about them, and what I have learned here and elsewhere. If one year ago my breeder would have said she knew a guy who would train up my dog for $500 using some fast techniques like this "table" thing and this ecollar like they put on retrievers, no big deal, who knows what I might have done?
Now, carrying out your theory on idiot readers, the lurkers in this forum now understand that rattlesnakes make great pets, one can take many bites from them, and just twist off a neck when they are done. I can go buy that snake right now at Hot Herps. So tell me again about the dangers of pretending to be something you're not (or at least severely bullshitting to the point of silliness) in a forum like this? You have also explicitly talked about easy scoring with women in bullshit liberal arts courses at universities. That's one I can confirm. I have a degree in English.
And as far as that goes, you can look at my posting history...the only people I have ever given advice to (re: dogs) are people dumber than me making mistakes even I could identify. I do that because I was in their situation once, and I still am in their situation. Try to look at an instance of me giving advice where I had no business giving it.
And...I should probably point out that making me have "experience" before I deserve to get "info" from people like you drives the very behaviors and results you say you feel morally obligated to prevent. So Jeff...based on your logic...how many dogs do I have to break before I (or anyone else with a basic appreciation of working dogs) earn the right to get info from you? 1? 2? 500?
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QUOTE: I wouldn't do any of the things (tables, ecollars) you suggest with my dog. That is because of what you and others have told me about them, and what I have learned here and elsewhere. If one year ago my breeder would have said she knew a guy who would train up my dog for $500 using some fast techniques like this "table" thing and this ecollar like they put on retrievers, no big deal, who knows what I might have done? END
Exactly. I certainly do not want to give Jeff any strokes*, but he is one of the several members here I trust to tell me the dangers in using a tool or method that's experience-sensitive, even though someone else might tout it as the best and easiest thing since sliced bread.
*
Exactly. I certainly do not want to give Jeff any strokes*, but he is one of the several members here I trust to tell me the dangers in using a tool or method that's experience-sensitive, even though someone else might tout it as the best and easiest thing since sliced bread.
*
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Works for me! I don't know any better. So, are you going to talk about profiles of potential PP owners and who you would or would not sell a dog to?
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Quote:So Jeff...based on your logic...how many dogs do I have to break before I (or anyone else with a basic appreciation of working dogs) earn the right to get info from you? 1? 2? 500?
I can't imagine you doing anything else BUT break a dog. Come back in ten years when you have a clue. You have to earn info. Or you can go to a seminar whore and pay for it.
Quote:You have an obligation (in my mind) to share it
Send me that 500 bucks I saved you, and I might.
Quote:rattlesnakes make great pets
Connie, see how people only see what they want to see? No way I thought that snake was anything but interesting. Not a great pet, nor did I say it was. That is why I twisted its neck. For sure snake tastes like chicken. That is confirmed.
I want to see the video of you catching dogs Woody, I can then use another term besides a Monkey ***** a football. C'mon now, don't you want to be the basis of new internet terminology?
I can't imagine you doing anything else BUT break a dog. Come back in ten years when you have a clue. You have to earn info. Or you can go to a seminar whore and pay for it.
Quote:You have an obligation (in my mind) to share it
Send me that 500 bucks I saved you, and I might.
Quote:rattlesnakes make great pets
Connie, see how people only see what they want to see? No way I thought that snake was anything but interesting. Not a great pet, nor did I say it was. That is why I twisted its neck. For sure snake tastes like chicken. That is confirmed.
I want to see the video of you catching dogs Woody, I can then use another term besides a Monkey ***** a football. C'mon now, don't you want to be the basis of new internet terminology?
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What's not funny about this exchange is that we screwed up the thread and I blew off another day of work at my deskjob.Jeff Oehlsen said:
What's funniest about this? A few hours from now? You're gonna reread this stuff...a little twitch will develop in your cheek, maybe your neck...a little burn from the base of your skull...and you're gonna mutter to yourself:
WOODY 1, JEFF 0.
G'night, folks!
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Quote:What's funniest about this? A few hours from now? You're gonna reread this stuff...a little twitch will develop in your cheek, maybe your neck...a little burn from the base of your skull...and you're gonna mutter to yourself:
WOODY 1, JEFF 0.
I wasn't gonna do this, but will mostly cause I have no idea what you are thinking here. 1 what?
Quote:Jeff Oehlsen Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject:
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Quote:
Woody, I only do this to help you out. Think about it, you don't know enough about what you are doing to incite others to join in like I can. I appreciate the effort, so I reward you from time to time. Good dog.
Works for me! I don't know any better. So, are you going to talk about profiles of potential PP owners and who you would or would not sell a dog to?
Woody 1 Jeff 0? Lack of reality is running rampant in your posts Woody. Does your family have a history of mental illness???
You remember when you would go to the local bar and sit down and talk to people? remember how eventually, you were sitting by yourself? Even the bartender was at the other end? That means something to normal people Woody, it means you need help. :twisted:
WOODY 1, JEFF 0.
I wasn't gonna do this, but will mostly cause I have no idea what you are thinking here. 1 what?
Quote:Jeff Oehlsen Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject:
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Quote:
Woody, I only do this to help you out. Think about it, you don't know enough about what you are doing to incite others to join in like I can. I appreciate the effort, so I reward you from time to time. Good dog.
Works for me! I don't know any better. So, are you going to talk about profiles of potential PP owners and who you would or would not sell a dog to?
Woody 1 Jeff 0? Lack of reality is running rampant in your posts Woody. Does your family have a history of mental illness???
You remember when you would go to the local bar and sit down and talk to people? remember how eventually, you were sitting by yourself? Even the bartender was at the other end? That means something to normal people Woody, it means you need help. :twisted:
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