Working Dog Forums banner
1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
382 Posts
That is really to bad. But hey, Leon is on to bigger and better things. RIP Leon.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,869 Posts
That really sucks!
I remember when I first saw that video. All I could think of is "That's one, kickass dog"!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,196 Posts
What a shame, unfortunately it's a cost of doing business. It's also a lesson for those that don't believe "fight" exists. The dog had no intention of backing out of that incident.

DFrost
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
209 Posts
I am not so sure it was worth the cost. The offender was known, it was not exactly murder or kidnap. The cost of releasing the dog in the dark across an obviously busy road. The options were to contain the suspect after he crossed the road, then use the dog for a search. The subject was on probation if not found that night he would have been pick up sooner or later as his identity was well known.

Deploying his dog in these circumstances is a huge decision that the handler has to live with, and we don't know the full facts. However if the decision is the dog may loose his life then the offence should be serious and the offender not someone the Courts has seen fit to release on probation.

Just because a dog is killed in the line of duty doesn't mean questions should be asked and lessons learned.

Mark
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,196 Posts
I should have added, I've been swamped. I have a short class going on now. Certifications start the 9th and I start a 10 week drug class the first part of May. I'm rewriting the general order because of CLEA requirements, doing an interview for the local FOX network Monday ----- anyone sick of hearing me whine yet????? I have to assistant trainers that also happen to be bomb dog handlers. Well for whatever reason, this past few days, the nuts are out. threats galore, a couple were really kind of scary threats. Any Tim, that's why I didn't get a chance to answer you quickly. So what the HMMMMM about? just curious.

DFrost
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,588 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I should have added, I've been swamped. I have a short class going on now. Certifications start the 9th and I start a 10 week drug class the first part of May. I'm rewriting the general order because of CLEA requirements, doing an interview for the local FOX network Monday ----- anyone sick of hearing me whine yet????? I have to assistant trainers that also happen to be bomb dog handlers. Well for whatever reason, this past few days, the nuts are out. threats galore, a couple were really kind of scary threats. Any Tim, that's why I didn't get a chance to answer you quickly. So what the HMMMMM about? just curious.

DFrost
only reason for the hmmmm was to bump the thread up again so you would see it. i thought maybe you hadn't seen it.

the reason i asked about the magazine is because i thought the article on drives was really good. what was particularly interesting was his explaination of hyperactivity and "fight" drive. for those that don't get the magazine, the author basically said he didn't think there was a "fight" drive. that it was a blend of other drives and characteristics. he refers to it as fight drive just because the term is getting so popular. he also talks about hyper dogs and how they can be mistaken for being "high drive".

as for mark....are you a PSD handler? as a PSD handler, i can see why he did what he did. i am constantly thinking about ways to use my dog. i try to involve him whenever i can. i would assume that in hindsight, the handler probably wishes he hadn't sent the dog. i find myself in the same situation some times. where my desire to use the dog overrides my better judgment. not in the sense that i would let the dog bite someone who wasn't bite worthy. the guy in this scenario was definitely bite worthy given the offense he committed and because he had felony warrants. obviously one of the main factors was the traffic.

i agree we should be able to learn from it. i know i learned from my last dog's death...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,588 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
It's also a lesson for those that don't believe "fight" exists. The dog had no intention of backing out of that incident.

DFrost
that's not fight drive. it's a dog with good nerves, good prey drive, enough defense, no equipment dependence and good training. some people would say all those things add up to "fight drive". i'm not one of them.

whatever you want to call it, at the end of the day, that was one nice dog that did a helluva job in that incident...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,196 Posts
I use the term only to be illustrative. It's easy to have someone watch a video of a dog being slammed into the side of a car, struck with intent and the dog refusing to go away or slow down. Fight is an illustrative way of saying it. In my ancient world, defense was something we didnt' want. I understand it's merely terminology, but in my day (which agreeably is fast passing) defense was akin to fear, territorial etc, behaviors that were not sought out. The past 15 years or so it's like I needed to learn a new language.

DFrost
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,588 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I use the term only to be illustrative. It's easy to have someone watch a video of a dog being slammed into the side of a car, struck with intent and the dog refusing to go away or slow down. Fight is an illustrative way of saying it. In my ancient world, defense was something we didnt' want. I understand it's merely terminology, but in my day (which agreeably is fast passing) defense was akin to fear, territorial etc, behaviors that were not sought out. The past 15 years or so it's like I needed to learn a new language.

DFrost
the videos that i watched in my first initial K9 school were from around that time. Dr. Hilliard i think was his name made a video on bitework and spoke of prey and defense. in his terminology, defense is what brought out power. prey was enough to get the dog to go out and chase and was more "fun" to the dog. when the encounter ceased to be fun anymore, the dog needed something else to fall back on or to call upon. defense was the term that was used.

i agree it's larely a terminology thing. i doubt anyone would do endless sends on fleeing suspects and say that the dog's bite training was finished. most all would or at least should agree that isn't sufficient. so yes, terminology shouldn't be a stumbling block and isn't really a big deal. i just take exception to the term "drive" because it implies far too much that can be applied to this "fight drive".

i think we're on the same page...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,196 Posts
I don't disagree with you. Dr. Hillard was later. Heck I'm still back in the day it was called prey/kill. Prey was the chase, the kill was the fight. That was Dr. Craig and even before. When you talk to some of the older guys, in the early days, particularly in the military. It would be names that you wouldn't recognize (at least I doubt that you would). Long before the days of sport infiltration. I don't have a problem with today's terminology, other than trying to remember it all. Hell it took forever for me to understand what "social" meant (still not sure I grasp that). I guess that is why I stay a trainer. I just know what they are supposed to do.

DFrost
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top