[Guest]

I'm looking for ideas other than the run-of-the-mill suggestions I normally get for how to get my dog to bite. He will NOT play with anyone except me, and he won't even do that if anyone's watching. I've been told he has no prey drive, but he's killed animals. He's as playful as they come with me, in my house, but outside he barely glances at anyone. He acts autistic. He gets most riled up if a man stares at him and even worse (better!) when he's on a leash, in the car, etc.

He's *extremely* territorial, and is positively vicious when crated if anyone approached him other than me, (mostly dogs). He is not interested in children at all, but is ok around them. He's very tolerant of other dogs, but by the time he's finally mad, he's MAD. He has serious aggression in some areas, but when a helper is agitating him, he thinks they're playing with him when they get very close, and gets annoyed and ignores them. He can be aggressive to people, but only if he absolutely has no idea who they are or if they stare at him, point at him, etc. (on neutral ground) and if they do something he doesn't like on his own turf (like touch my stuff). I know this can be channelled; I just need ideas how I can do it sort of by myself. I don't have many volunteers; he's not very pleasant. :lol: Takes after his dear old Mom. One person (I won't name names :wink: ) said they're \"sick of his rich boy attitude.\" That's a good summary I guess; he continually hurts the feelings of well-meaning family members who think he's going to warm up to them...nope. I have to admit, I like it :lol: .

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

So he's never bitten a sleeve on a decoy?

 

[Guest]

He's never been worked by a decoy with a sleeve.

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

If nothing else works, there's 2 things I'd try.

First, this is probably the least pressure on the dog.... have a decoy assault YOU, this is what was explained to me recently by a guy I worked with a couple weeks ago, I believe he explained that it brings out more of a pack protective instinct rather than directly threatening the dog, and might get the dog riled up if he believes you're really being hurt. Have a decoy beat the hell outta you with a baseball bat... or if you're not into that kinda thing, a foam swimming pool noodle type thing or 1.5\" pipe insulation from home depot or something else that's soft.

Secondly, have a decoy that knows what the hell he's doing agitate the dog wearing a sleeve and use something like a clatter stick to try and put some defensive pressure on your dog (how old is he again??). Then if the dog does bite, have the decoy start working the dog with prey movements and slip the sleeve. Cujo didn't know what the hell to do with the sleeve when he first was introduced to it, and he still isn't very worked up about it when I take him to see new decoys in a new location, but putting a little defensive pressure on him really gets him to come out, after that he bites alot better. Once he's kinda got the understanding of what he's supposed to do, you can start putting him on a bungie tie out and having the decoy running back n forth n really work him up, but that's later once he's understanding what to do.

Also, if he plays with you, I think it'd be beneficial to get ahold of a sleeve, buy one, borrow one, whatever, and just play with it on your arm in the house with him so he learns that the sleeve is for biting and it's OK to bite it when it's on someones arm. Alot of people don't like the idea of \"Decoying\" for your own dog, but if it's a game and you're not doing anything defensive with your dog I don't see what the big deal is. I've seen a guy run out into the training field wearing a bite suit get chased down by his own dog, the dog was in prey and just playing with daddy.

On another note -- Cujo is more interested in a sleeve when you keep it moving and have someone WEARING it, if you just drag it on the floor he doesn't care too much about it. His favorite toy is a leg sleeve, maybe I should train him for french ring LOL.

 

[Guest]

I was planning on buying a sleeve. I'm not worried about having him bite me either; he won't even rough-house with me, but he and my ex really used to get rough. I think the bat thing could get old unless he gets worked up the very first time :lol: . Caleb doesn't care about new places at all-he doesn't really care about much :? . I don't think he's the type to see a decoy as prey; he tends to back off as soon as the threat is gone. He doesn't really care to chase a person; once they're gone, he's fine . He takes a LOT of pressure to make him \"come out\" at all-well, except if you stare at him :lol: . It's hard to make him really see something as a serious threat and not a game (in which he has zero interest ). It has to be 100% real with him, every time, or I get nothing. ARRGH! :evil: This makes working with a novice (another novice besides moi) very tricky, if not impossible.

 

[Guest]

Can no one help a damsel in distress?

 

[Bob Scott]

Jen, I would be really cautious about working him yourself, on a sleeve. Without a LOT of understanding about different drives, it would be to easy for the inexpierienced to put their own dog in defence. When that happens, the dog looses trust in that person. That could be what happened with the dog and your ex. If your ex played TO rough, it may have brought to much stress and he no longer views game time as fun. If he does ok in the house, work with that. When he's wound up, bring out a rag on a rope, or something similar. The key is the rope. If he chases a ball, then he has the ball, and no longer needs to interact with you. With the rag on a rope, the game is playing with you, NOT just getting the rag. IMHO, to many dogs are started in defence to early. This is a BIG cause of stress and avoidance.

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

IMHO, to many dogs are started in defence to early. This is a BIG cause of stress and avoidance.

Absolutely. I'd also like to clarify that when we put defensive pressure on Cujo to get him to bite, that's only when he's working with a new decoy in a new location and he's not focusing on them, he's never been pushed into avoidance and never worked beyond his limits. When he's with his regular decoy in his usual location and does awesome, it's 90% prey work.

 

[Hil Harrison]

I know here at the club Jenni they will tie the dog on a long leash onto a pole or something like that. The decoy will start aggitating him by running back and fore just to work him up, but far away that he cant reach the sleeve. At a certain point the decoy will run in and let him have a go at biting, them run off. Then it starts all over again. Handler dissapears out of view at th beginning .Just give him a few tries and if it works stop while hes winning. You can always start off with a large canvas cloth instead of a sleeve but the tactic is the same.

Tied to a pole they learn to work for themselves instead of having the handler there as back-up. At a certain point when hes got the hang of it you can appear and encourage him to \"get the decoy\".

Some dogs develop prey drive later and some just have defence drive. This system has worked on dogs at the club with both drives. :wink:

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the replies, but he's never bitten a sleeve, except a hidden one a few times. He's very frustrating...and takes a lot of pressure (unless you just look at him for a few seconds) to go into defense. I don't really know if it's even defense. Maybe it's just territorial aggression...I just don't know :? :?: .

Bob, he is ALL PLAY when tugging w/me. He drags me around the house with it, but he will not play rough with me at all...it's more like he recognizes the size difference between me and my ex...(about 120lbs difference), or maybe some male/female thing than a defense issue. He was just playing with him, too. He never went into defense-it was all just goofing around, and Caleb always started it, and Caleb was never the one to call it quits. Keep in mind that he has not seen Caleb since he was a year old, so he was much different mentally than he is now.

I was just thinking of getting a sleeve to tug with so he sees it as an ok item to bite. Right now, he only will play with ME and HIS OWN toys. We've tried staking him, and unless the decoy approaches in a threatening manner, he acts like he's not there :x . I have given up the idea of him ever interacting with someone else in play.

I have raised yet ANOTHER snob...

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

Your dog obviously has something in him, you just needa work with someone to bring it out, it doesn't sound like you're going out there and trying to work at it twice a week which is what you really ought to be doing with him. If I gave up everytime my dog wouldn't bite or wouldn't show interest in biting I woulda quit a long time ago, if all it takes is \"looking at him\" then have the decoy \"look at him\".

 

[Guest]

<sarcastically> Geez, Mike. Never thought about having someone look at him :lol: . I KNOW that's what I need to build on; NO ONE WILL DO IT!! ARGH! It's so frustrating when these \"experts\" called trainers can't figure out how to do anything with this dog b/c he won't play with them. And I can't just find any old person to help, because they won't know what they're doing if/when he DOES go to bite them...so I'd be back to square one anyway. You and Patrick lucked out w/each other to help your dogs. I'd work Caleb every night if I had someone to help me.

Why do I want my dog to play with a decoy anyway? :? I'd much rather focus on real life scenarios, minus obvious equipment.

I really need to move, or I'm stuck. This is the worst place on Earth to try to train a PPD. The whole mentality of people is against me; Sch. is about as hardcore as I can find...

 

[Guest]

7mins is very short. Mike, every time I try to explain what I need someone to do w/Caleb, they just try to sell me a dog who \"has it\", saying Caleb doesn't, because he's not interested in them. I seriously am starting to think it's an ego thing, and when someone can't get him to bite right off the bat, they'd rather say the dog is shit than say they need to work him differently... :roll:

 

[Greg Long]

Jenni,
I just dont think Caleb has what it takes.

Why dont you let me take him off your hands :wink:

Ill give you a great deal on something that does have \"it\"

Greg

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

7mins is very short. Mike, every time I try to explain what I need someone to do w/Caleb, they just try to sell me a dog who \"has it\", saying Caleb doesn't, because he's not interested in them. I seriously am starting to think it's an ego thing, and when someone can't get him to bite right off the bat, they'd rather say the dog is shit than say they need to work him differently... :roll:

OK it's 12 minute edit time now lol.

I understand your predicament, it's annoying I know, I still get the \"you're nuts for trying to work that dog\" looks from some people who have never seen Cujo perform on his \"home field\", so when he's in a new place that stinks of dog, they think he's useless because the smells in the grass are more appetizing than the decoy running around, which is why we introduce defensive pressure, to snap him outta the \"sniff the grass\" mode and send him into \"oh yeah I gotta bite this guy\" mode. He's getting there, it's just a problem that developed because he's only ever worked in one location with one decoy, once he realizes that biting happens everywhere with anyone, I'm sure that'll change.

How far from Chicago are you? Have you looked at the Chicago working dog forums and seen if there's someone out there who'll run around for 10 or 20 minutes with your dog for $20 and a 6 pack? It's not even about playing with the dog, it's about working the dog in whatever way the dog can be triggered. Have you ever spoken to the guy over at Diehl K9? I think he's around the IL area.

 

[Guest]

Greg, I hate you :lol: . Could you just attempt to be helpful, please? Shed some light on the big jerk? Your take?

Mike, I have looked around Chi-town and, no, I don't know Diehl K9. I'll check it out. Your situation is similar; you see your dog in a different light than strangers. Caleb doesn't care about new places and pretty much acts the same, except he's SUPER territorial at home, and obviously is not so territorial other places. So, while I don't have grass-sniffing issues, I have \"...and you are....?\" attitude just about everywhere! :x I am just determined that I'm going to channel the pure hatred I see in him sometimes into something productive in his training. And ask anyone...once I grab on, I don't let go...someone once said I'm \"very sharp and don't out.\"

Thanks for the extra edit time, pal!

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

I often think I should do some sort of tracking with Cujo, because he has a nose that never stops, his nose is 1000x better than his bitework, but he's never been trained to do anything other than find toys that I hide around the house. When he's sniffing for something it keeps him so focused on the scent that he ignores EVERYTHING else, n even if he can visually SEE what he's looking for, he doesn't pay attention to it, he wants to SMELL its location... it's kinda cool watching a dog act this way, but it's really annoying that he wants to sniff EVERYTHING when he's not home lol.

 

[Guest]

Love your avatar! Lyka is precious. Makes me want a puppy...then I think about Apollo and change my mind. :lol:

I've only done limited tracking a few times with Caleb, but he did really well. He cut the tracks in a straight line most of the time and was really accurate. But then, so was Widget 8) . I guess this should probably move to \"tracking\" if we continue this...

Go ahead, Greg. Make your snide comments about Widge's tracking. Not our fault if your dogs don't even WANT to find you :lol: , and mine will kill themselves running toward me :wink: .

 

[Greg Long]

I believe Mike Diehl is in Indiana.Ive heard good things about him.

Ok,Ok Jen.
Caleb is from some very slow maturing lines.I think he is still immature and a little unsure of himself.The aggression is there but I dont believe he was properly imprinted so it is a challenge.He may have \"prey drive\" but IMO I dont think that will work for him now.He is just not interested in having fun with anyone except Jenni.Thats funny,Jenni is the same way :lol: .
Anyway,I do think Caleb is trainable and could do protection work but he needs training EVERYDAY for awhile at least.His confidence needs to be built by having someone stare at him and then when he acts aggressively(which he will do)they turn away and then run and he gets to chase them off.This is where I would start with this dog.Reinforce this behavior and eventually let him get closer and closer to the decoy.

Jenni,you need to develop a working relationship with him not just a pet/owner relationship and quit treating your dog like a ........well nevermind :wink:

Greg

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

I believe Mike Diehl is in Indiana.Ive heard good things about him.

I know someone getting a pup outta one of his litters at the end of the year, from what I saw and what he told me about the dogs, they're awesome! If he's anywhere near you and offers any type of training service, it'd probably be worthwhile to talk to him and check him out.