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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
> This past Saturday I responded to a call from a conveinance store ref; a subject stole 2 cases of beer and fled on foot across the street south bound from the store into a partially wooded residential neighborhood.

> Upon arrival I placed my partner in harness and he immediatly picked up the trail, we are tracking (off) the lead as this is my preference. About 200 feet into the track he slows and locates the 2 cases of beer. I tell him good boy and ask him to continue the track. We track about another 100 yards before reaching the street over from the store. He turns west and I begin to observe that his speed has slowed considerably but he continues tracking through the street continuously checking the right side of the street. Upon reaching the intersection he casts and then turns north and continues to once again work the right side of the street slower now until we reach a major intersection, at that time he begins casting.

> I have perimiter units stop all traffic and let my partner recast several times in an attempt to relocate the track. After about 5 minutes I terminate the track.

> Later after looking at the in store video we identified the suspect and went to his residence and detained him.

> Here is my question. When asking the bad guy which way he went, he stated my partner was on the track until I lost it at the major intersection. However he got into his friends vehicle at the first street and travelled the exact route my partner took until losing it at the intersection.

> Was my partner trailing his scent omitting from the vehicle as he left? It was humid that night, the perp admitted to being scared and sweating immensely. He also stated when asked, the vehicle had both windows down in the truck as it had no a/c.

> Any opinions or theories would be appreciated.

> Phil Dodson
 

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I have a question.....

LE dogs are "tracking" dogs, which is footstep to footstep ground disturbance work, correct?

Or do you have a scent discriminate "trailing" dog that follows the skin rafts that are released from the body?

I would not think that with a "tracking" (ground disturbance) dog that he would be able to track a vehicle. I am not a believer of "trailing" dogs being able to trail people in vehicles.

I am interested in others answers as well, but I really want to clarify what discipline you work with the dog.
 

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I've been around dogs long enough to not say; "it ain't possible". I've also been around dogs long enough to say, I don't believe the dog was tracking. There have been several occasions where people have told me they've trained these particular scenarios and are quite successful. I tell them I have to take the position of, I'm from Missouri, Show Me. I have no doubt you ended up where you did, and that the subject went that direction. I don't believe the dog was tracking, "scent discriminate" or otherwise. Which is perhaps a discussion for another thread, because I believe a good police tracking dog, can be a scent discriminator as well as (ground disturbance) or whatever you might want to call it.

DFrost
 

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David are you saying that a well trained tracking dog will trail and air scent if he has to? In other words do what it needs to in order to refind the scent when it's lost?
 

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David are you saying that a well trained tracking dog will trail and air scent if he has to? In other words do what it needs to in order to refind the scent when it's lost?
Yes sir I am. In fact, it's the one thing that frustrates me about our blood hound. He'll track a popcorn fart in a blizzard but will not leave the track to air scent the person. The patrol dogs will, without question, airscent,and leave a track. It's why I also believe there is some scent discrimination taking place. Talking to some other Bloodhound handlers in the area, they have the same results, they are just tracking machines and could care less about taking a "shortcut" and getting the same results. The infamous Brushy Mountain Prison, in the eastern part of our state, has Bloodhounds that routinely track 3 to 5 mile training scenarios. The terrain around that prison is heavily wooded and straight up. There isn't a lot of flat ground around there.

DFrost
 

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I think it is possible, I have read where dogs have started down a road before being taken off, and then later the bad guy had gotten in a vehicle.
A lot of people think it's possible. I just want to see it for myself. I'll be glad to set it up if someone wants to show me it can be done. I've probably got as many miles looking at the southend of a northbound tracking dog as anyone. I've seen a lot of things that made me shake my head and say out loud, "how the hell did he do that". On this I'm very skeptical.

I worked on a project for a considerable length of time to help downed pilots escape track dogs. We tried about everything that is imaginable, some that aren't. During that period, I never saw a truly successful track where the subject was in a vehicle.

DFrost
 

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Not enough information, to give accurate opinion but assumming the lengths vehicle traveled on road were less than 300 yards (sounds like) windows down, night humid conditions, track age around 30 minutes. I would say yes
being dog did get on track and find the beer cases so obviously was on correct track to begin with prior to hitting street. Expierienced dogs easily air scent from 100 yards under normal conditions and make night time and humidity that range greatly increases.

Dan Reiter
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
> I could tell by the slowing of his pace that the track was becoming increasingly harder to work. Often he would double back past me in wait, check and then begin a slow trot or just a brisk walk again, stop check back, reasure himself, and then move on. I did not encourage him until he would move forward again. He worked this way continuously until reaching the intersection.
> It was a track that would have normally been completed in less than half the time it would take with the method I use, but as I stated, up until the intersection he never gave me an indication he was screwing off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Carol

> To answer your question, I start them off by traditional tracking methods. We spend the majority of the training however on non vegetated surfaces so in my opinion I believe he performs a combination of both. As I train our teams to work off the lead, they often range and cast several more feet off of the track than most on line teams do.

> I do pull the teams off the street once a year, go back to wooded grass only non distracting tracks to get their heads back down, clean up any problems, and most of all to slow them down a bit.
 

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Carol

> To answer your question, I start them off by traditional tracking methods. We spend the majority of the training however on non vegetated surfaces so in my opinion I believe he performs a combination of both. As I train our teams to work off the lead, they often range and cast several more feet off of the track than most on line teams do.

> I do pull the teams off the street once a year, go back to wooded grass only non distracting tracks to get their heads back down, clean up any problems, and most of all to slow them down a bit.
Man, I just do not know.....I am not a believer that it can be done that way, however I am not a believer that it cannot be done that way either. I am really skeptical of vehicle trails, tracks or whatever, especially in an urban environment.
 

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I think Phils dog did by his description of behavior and description of tracking conditions (besides were not talking any great distance or interstate speeds). You would have to conclude no odor vapor from individual was emitted from vehicle to believe otherwise.

Here is link to tracking test that I would have to say show me. www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/july2004/research/2004_03_research03.htm

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
> You got that right!! Also could you imagine me trying to explain this scenario on a witness stand to non dog people if he had located this guy by some freekin miracle.

> This is the first time in my years working dogs though that I have honestly been confronted with this kind of problem. It would be worth a training try though.
 

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Qoute: It would be worth a training try though

I tried it once I wanted to see what dogs reaction would be so I know on lost track what he would do (take me on a ghost track or whatever). After running a circle at leads length ( showing loss of track) I unleashed him and said find it he made large circle (spent couple minutes) never got more than 300 ft from track end he downed at about 25 feet from vehicle pick up point. However was mid-morning about 3 hours old dont recall if windows up or down was not seeing if he could track person in vehicle but what his loss of track would be.

Not something I would want to train for might create me ghost tracker in the progress.
(I am going to wait for David Frost to come out with book on how to do this when he retires) Heee Heee

Dan
 

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<<<I am going to wait for David Frost to come out with book on how to do this when he retires) Heee Heee>>>

I'd hate for you to miss out on an opportunity. Actually, I have written a book. However, I'm going to forgo the normal publishing, media-hype, frenzied book tour route and sell the only published copy for 1 million dollars. The price, would of course, include my autograph.

DFrost
 

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<<<I am going to wait for David Frost to come out with book on how to do this when he retires) Heee Heee>>>

I'd hate for you to miss out on an opportunity. Actually, I have written a book. However, I'm going to forgo the normal publishing, media-hype, frenzied book tour route and sell the only published copy for 1 million dollars. The price, would of course, include my autograph.

DFrost
Another exemplary plan for saving trees......... :>)
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
> Sorry for not replying. My partner suffered a massive stroke Thursday afternoon and passed away this afternoon.
 
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