Protection dog competing in sports

8086 Views 55 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Jeff Oehlsen, Apr 30, 2006

Patrick Murray

Discussion Starter · Apr 25, 2006

Have any of you trained a dog for PPD and then trained him to work in sport? With that said I know everybody has a different definition of what is a PPD. Some so called PPD dogs were trained with sporting methods and the "conversion" was easy. What I'm really wondering is if anybody here had a bona-fide, hardcore street protection dog that they were able to successfully convert to sport. If so please tell us about it. Thanks.

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Tim Martens

· #2 · Apr 25, 2006

i would think that a properly trained PPD wouldn't have to be "converted" for sport (ASR or PSA). if you have control of your dog, those two sports shouldn't be a problem. just polish up the OB and you're right there. if you have some aggressive, vicious land shark who wants to bite everything that comes close to the handler and won't out (and don't emphasize control in your training), then yes, you'll have problems competing in ANY sport.

Patrick Murray

Discussion Starter · #3 · Apr 25, 2006

Tim, some PPD trainers (not many) are of the philosophy to let the dog fight naturally (hence not necessarily stay on the bite) and to put the dog into actualy fights with a decoy that is hitting and kicking the dog and, in some cases, actually hitting the dog with an object (such as a whippy type stick that stings and leaves a welt) to cause pain but not injury. There is the philosophy that if a PPD dog has successfully worked through a few of these experiences then this type of dog can be relied upon in a real life situation.

Some PPD trainers don't agree with this approach and the training their dogs receive is far less demanding on the dog and, in some respects, seems to be more closely related to sport training. So I can understand why a lot of people believe that a PPD dog can compete in PPD sports without any issue. But some might argue that the so called PPD dog was in fact a sport dog all along.

I've seen in person and on video several dogs engaged in actual fights with a very mean and very aggressive decoy. And I found it beautiful to watch these dogs evade the decoy's attacks and, with lightning fast counter-attacks, deliver what must have been devestating bites onto the decoy. The dogs did take some shots, but from I could see the dogs were masters at evading most of the shots and these dogs were very serious and formidable adversaries for the decoy.

My thought is that this type of training may make or reveal a better PPD dog but diminishes the dog's sport scoring ability as the dog may not perform the way the sport's judges like to see it done.

And let me also clarify that I'm not saying that dogs not trained in this manner are not PPD dogs. I've seen some ASR dogs that I am convinced are not just sport dogs. I'm sure there are many GREAT PPD dogs that were not trained in the above-described manner.

With that said I'm wondering if there is anyone out there that has taken a hardened PPD dog and cross-trained him/her to do sport?

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Tim Martens

· #4 · Apr 25, 2006

Patrick Murray said:
Tim, some PPD trainers (not many) are of the philosophy to let the dog fight naturally (hence not necessarily stay on the bite) and to put the dog into actualy fights with a decoy that is hitting and kicking the dog and, in some cases, actually hitting the dog with an object (such as a whippy type stick that stings and leaves a welt) to cause pain but not injury. There is the philosophy that if a PPD dog has successfully worked through a few of these experiences then this type of dog can be relied upon in a real life situation.

Some PPD trainers don't agree with this approach and the training their dogs receive is far less demanding on the dog and, in some respects, seems to be more closely related to sport training. So I can understand why a lot of people believe that a PPD dog can compete in PPD sports without any issue. But some might argue that the so called PPD dog was in fact a sport dog all along.

I've seen in person and on video several dogs engaged in actual fights with a very mean and very aggressive decoy. And I found it beautiful to watch these dogs evade the decoy's attacks and, with lightning fast counter-attacks, deliver what must have been devestating bites onto the decoy. The dogs did take some shots, but from I could see the dogs were masters at evading most of the shots and these dogs were very serious and formidable adversaries for the decoy.

My thought is that this type of training may make or reveal a better PPD dog but diminishes the dog's sport scoring ability as the dog may not perform the way the sport's judges like to see it done.

And let me also clarify that I'm not saying that dogs not trained in this manner are not PPD dogs. I've seen some ASR dogs that I am convinced are not just sport dogs. I'm sure there are many GREAT PPD dogs that were not trained in the above-described manner.

With that said I'm wondering if there is anyone out there that has taken a hardened PPD dog and cross-trained him/her to do sport?

if that's the case, then a more specific question would be at what level do you wish to compete? so if the dog is trained to bite/release/bite/release, he would lose points on the grip i suppose, but i wouldn't think it would be enough to not get titled. win the competition? probably not.

every group of dog enthusiasts have there own personal thoughts and opinions. the sport people will say that the PPD people aren't willing to put the time and control into the dog that a sport takes and the PPD people will say that the sport dogs aren't "real". i would tend to agree with the sport people, but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle...

Jeff Oehlsen

· #5 · Apr 25, 2006

Quote:Tim, some PPD trainers (not many) are of the philosophy to let the dog fight naturally (hence not necessarily stay on the bite) and to put the dog into actualy fights with a decoy that is hitting and kicking the dog and, in some cases, actually hitting the dog with an object (such as a whippy type stick that stings and leaves a welt) to cause pain but not injury. There is the philosophy that if a PPD dog has successfully worked through a few of these experiences then this type of dog can be relied upon in a real life situation.

Please don't train with this kind of trainer. This shows a lack of experience, or enough experience to know that this is quicker than going thru bite development, and thus quicker $$$$

I really do find that an awful lot of PPD's are weak, and have no business doing this work. However, if you have a good dog, you really are doing him a diservice by only doing PP with him/her, cause again, in general, it is some weak stuff. There is no reason not to do a sport,(NOT SCH!!!! :lol: ) It will just make whatever else you are doing better. IMHO.

A lot of dogs can bite, it is the control that shows the weakness in the dog.

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Jose Alberto Reanto

· #6 · Apr 25, 2006

Remember what was said of our Shepherd dogs:

"The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs, these must always be tha aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs. In contradistinction to working and utility is "sport" breeding, which produces a temporary advance but is always followed by deterioration, for it is not done for the sake of the dog, nor does it make him more useful, it is done for the vanity of the breeder and the subsequent purchaser..."

"The more we emphasize the the social and civil importance of SERVICE DOG BREEDING", the easier it will be for all true friends of the breed to keep it sound... it will then be stripped of all which has grown thru indifference, Ignorance, Vanity, the Obsession for "Sport", and a GREED for MONEY.... Max Von Stephanitz

Greg Long

· #7 · Apr 25, 2006

I agree with Al.

I dont agree with Jeff.That type of training takes longer than sport if done correctly.

I dont really agree with Tim either.The dog isnt "trained to bite and release",its really up to the dog.

I think many dogs that are trained through sport are good PPD dogs and good PSD in spite of there sport training not because of it.

Some high drive sport type dogs are far more dangerous(in a bad way) than a calm stable and serious PPD.

Absolute control is even more important with a PPD than with a sport dog.

JMO

Greg

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Mike Schoonbrood

· #8 · Apr 25, 2006

IMO if a dog has it in him then it'll still be in him regardless of the style of training, if you have a super nasty civil defensive Schutzhund dog, the Schutzhund training doesn't make the dog any better or worse, the dog is gonna bite regardless of what you do. As long as your goal in training is to build the dogs confidence I don't see the difference between sport and personal protection, since all sport is, is control over what your dog can do anyway. A dog getting hit and hurt shouldn't be every day training, it should be a test to see how good your training has been. The only difference between sport and ppd in my mind should be that in sport you don't have as many reality based scenarios in your field training, but that doesn't mean you can't do it, it just means your dog needs to exercise the same control in the real world as they do on the training field, if your dog can't exercise that control then you don't HAVE control over the dog and is something you need to work on. At the end of the day, a good dog will bite in a real world situation, the control work required in sport is what keeps that dog from deciding for themselves what a bad situation is, and getting it wrong.

Patrick, your dog may not have a sport upbringing, but Jake is a good dog, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind about that and I was absolutely impressed with him on Sunday's training, he did the ASR routine very well and I don't think that training him to do the ASR routine will have any adverse effects on him being able to continue being the dog he is, all I see from you and Jake is that your relationship with him is evolving, you've learnt alot about Jake's mentality since I've met you, you've learnt to take a different approach to some of your training, and it's all paying off. All the crazy intense stuff you want to do with Jake can be done without adverseley affecting his ability to perform in ASR, you just need to train it in such a way that he maintains the confidence and clearheadedness that he has today. Regardless of the training route you may have alternatively taken with him in the past, at the end of the day, he's still a good dog, and he would have been just as good a dog if you had raised him for ASR from 8 weeks old, because it's bred into him, his nerves and drives are all there and they don't just go away.

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G

· #9 · Apr 25, 2006

Jeff, are you saying don't train w/a trainer who trains in this *philosophy*, or are you saying nix the injury part? If you're saying that the dog doesn't need to be injured to be put in a "real-life" situation, then I agree. But, I agree most w/ what Al posted. I know you're no more of a Sch. fan than I am, Jeff, so you'll probably agree that you wouldn't want a sleeve-happy, high-scoring Sch. dog watching YOUR back :wink: . I firmly believe in working dogs through stress, but injury is a whole other ballgame.

G

· #10 · Apr 25, 2006

I think Mike makes a good point about a really good dog being able to bite in a real situation regardless of training style, but I would stress that it has to be imprinted properly. I see some dogs at the club who start screeching when they see the sleeve, and chase the sleeve when it's slipped, and their owners are convinced that they're man-eaters...I pray they never find out otherwise. I think there are more good PPD dogs who could do Sch. than there are Sch. dogs that I'd trust w/my life...JMO. I am not overly impressed w/the standards of Sch. these days...

I'm all about natural when it comes to this stuff-the dog isn't *trained* to bite in a certain way; he is permitted to fight in whatever manner nature tells him to do so. There are things humans have to teach dogs, and there are things naturally inherent in dogs that we can't really explain. IMO, tracking and biting are two things that I'll leave to my dog and his expertise :wink: .

Sorry for the double post; my computer was slow, and I thought I was editing...oops.

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Jeff Oehlsen

· #11 · Apr 25, 2006

There are people out there that like the bite and release, and probably can train for it quite well.

If you want my honest answer about PP dogs, well go get a gun, learn how to use it well because there aren't many "good" PP dogs out there, anywhere. Usually when I hear of one, and track it down, it is a Walt Disney story in the making.

From a decoy standpoint, you teach a dog to bite and release, I got a really good chance of running your dog, then attacking you. This is why I say carry a gun. I have seen more "weak" dogs carry thru on the bite in a PP type situation. That is why I had the numbers up there. Unless you have a dog that seriously tries to bite people all the time, I again recommend the gun.

Quote:I'm all about natural when it comes to this stuff-the dog isn't *trained* to bite in a certain way; he is permitted to fight in whatever manner nature tells him to do so. There are things humans have to teach dogs, and there are things naturally inherent in dogs that we can't really explain.

Can't go along with this one. I can teach a dog to bite better everytime. I like to teach them where and how to bite. It doesn't come naturally often enough for me to have faith. I like to teach PP dogs to bite the crotch or the stomach. Shut the guy down, so you can run like hell back to a safe spot.

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Jeff Oehlsen

· #12 · Apr 25, 2006

Quote:The more we emphasize the the social and civil importance of SERVICE DOG BREEDING", the easier it will be for all true friends of the breed to keep it sound... it will then be stripped of all which has grown thru indifference, Ignorance, Vanity, the Obsession for "Sport", and a GREED for MONEY.... Max Von Stephanitz

I wonder what the GSD would be like today if anyone had listened to him??

Jose Alberto Reanto

· #13 · Apr 25, 2006

This is a great thread, a diference of opinions. Makes the world go round.

I agree that many PP dogs don't belong to the streets. I believe some Sportdogs may still have that ability to engage in real life situations. No doubt about those. In fact, weak dogs don't belong anywhere. But I will not be the one to say that just because one has a dog that bites well in Sports, it can do well in real life. I wonder if I can sleep well having convinced a handler of that. Even prominent sports trainers will be honest enough to advice a sport dog if one wants to do sports, and train another of a more serious-type for personal defense. I sure wish personal protection would simply be shouting "paken" and engaging a LONE decoy 20 yards away in some open area, or just simply one of those routines I train my dogs in. Then I wouldn't have to do "crosstraining" just to let the dog understand it's different outside of the sporting field.

Unless one is deeply engaged in that discipline having a NEED for such, one will never get to know, and may have no solid basis for opinions. It will be grossly irresponsible to the point of stupid, indecent and immature of me to call a trainer or a handler inexperienced or just after money just because he's involved in a training different from what I do to which I don't have a full understanding of. I can be branded an airhead for that. :lol: :lol: :lol: Engaging in any dog training discipline is not at all bad, as long as one is aware of its intentions and where it belongs.

Just my opinion...

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Patrick Murray

Discussion Starter · #14 · Apr 26, 2006

Jeff, please clarify if I'm misunderstanding you. What I'm hearing from you is that PPD dogs are weaker than sport dogs. I believe you also said that PPD training is "weak stuff".

Why do you feel that PPD dogs are weaker than sport dogs and why do you feel that PPD training is "weak stuff"?

Or did I misread or misunderstand you?

G

· #15 · Apr 26, 2006

Jeff, I didn't mean I don't think you can improve how a dog bites or guide him to where he should bite; I meant that he already knows HOW to bite, and I don't think that we should try to change a dog's "style." We can figure out how the dog works and improve on it, but I don't think we should eliminate any dog just because he bites a certain way.

Jose Alberto Reanto

· #16 · Apr 26, 2006

Jeff Oehlsen said:
Quote:The more we emphasize the the social and civil importance of SERVICE DOG BREEDING", the easier it will be for all true friends of the breed to keep it sound... it will then be stripped of all which has grown thru indifference, Ignorance, Vanity, the Obsession for "Sport", and a GREED for MONEY.... Max Von Stephanitz

I wonder what the GSD would be like today if anyone had listened to him??

I will leave that to your imagination, Jeff. But first you have to be aware what SERVICE DOG BREEDING is. It's other than showbreeding and sportsbreeding. There's an equation simple enough to understand: a sportdog bred to another sportdog = another sportdog. Can't grow apples from oranges. One works a dog constantly in same or similar environments doing same or similar routines, then call a dog streetworthy and confident. Who's fooling whom?

Best regards....

Jeff Oehlsen

· #17 · Apr 26, 2006

Man, where to start?? LOL!

Jose, I was always a fan of the dogs that had Sch and HGH titles, in the pedigree. You rarly see a guide dog being bred, but I wouldn't pass on a dog for it. I really have a concern for the GSD because of the breeding for stinky Sch, only. I also see a lot of people with less than breed quality dogs throwing out litters left and right, and say how awesome their stud is, and all I can see is maybe average. I would bring back breed wardens right this minute, if I could. No approval, no papers. I reeeeeeeeaaallly don't want people putting a Sch3 on a Mal and calling it breedworthy.

Jenni, rarely does the "style" really impact what I ask of them for PP.

Yes, I think that overall that PP is weak stuff. There are DEFINATLY people out there that do an excellent job with their dogs, and others, but they really are in the minority. There are hundreds of thousands of Personal Protection trainers out there. 98% of them suck azz. Truely, I am not slamming, but this is personal experience. As a bartender, I have worked all over the place, and have sought out these people to work my dogs. Most of them were boobs. I have no problem with a learning decoy, but these people were worse than a learning decoy.

I have been training since I was 7. I will be 42 this summer. I still do not think that I know everything, although sometimes when I re-read a post I wrote, it sure as heck reads like I think I do! #-o

I am serious when I say that I will take a little 7 lb yorkie for a PP dog anyday over most other breeds. I just need to be woken up. I am large enough, and skilled enough with a weapon or without to deal with Mr "I wanna take your stuff."

Besides, I like my sport dogs. What if the little turd sued me?? I am not giving up my dogs for doing the right thing. Dead men tell no lies.

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Jeff Oehlsen

· #18 · Apr 26, 2006

OK, so here is the "weak stuff" line.

I saw this ALL THE TIME when I had my school, and when I worked at others schools.

People get a GSD and go to a club (sport) and are told there dog is too weak. They don't believe them, and go to another club. They get told the same thing. Then they come to me or another school, and want to do PP. When I had my school, I often saw someone who just wanted to do this stuff with their dog, and knew the dog was weak. I tried to see what kind of bond the owners had with their dog. If it was good, then I put them in my bargain basement PP class with others that had no illusions and I taught the dog to bite. I found that the people who loved their dogs and had a strong bond got the best results. They were never disappointed no matter what happened.

Of all the strong working dogs, I never saw one that protected when it was supposed to. Of all the weak stuff I saw three do the job they were supposed to, and so far and above what that dog was you would not believe it. I saw the Police reports. What these dogs lacked in drive, or nerve, they made up for in character. Give me that dog everytime. Too bad I don't see it so much anymore.

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Greg Long

· #19 · Apr 26, 2006

Boy I sure would hate to agree with Jeff on anything but...... :x .

The number one thing that dogs lack today is character.I really cant even give an exact answer as to the definition of character except that the dog steps up and handles a tough situation with confidence when it is needed.

Character has absolutely nothing to do with drive or hardness.

Greg

Selena van Leeuwen

· #20 · Apr 26, 2006

Greg Long said:
Boy I sure would hate to agree with Jeff on anything but...... :x .

The number one thing that dogs lack today is character.I really cant even give an exact answer as to the definition of character except that the dog steps up and handles a tough situation with confidence when it is needed.

Character has absolutely nothing to do with drive or hardness.

Greg

I think you mean: stabile, confident, sure of itself and the world around him, independend.. things like this?

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