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Bob… =;

I'm gonna have to talk about politics or religion or any of the other forbidden fruits if you keep that rat thing up.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
my rodent preference is prairie dogs
probably because when i think about em i remember a hottie who used to walk hers thru the shopping arcade on a harness :)

much better eye candy than the ferrets with tutus that a guy used to bring in his shopping cart
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Gina
now that you're in a club i'm curious about how your training methods are developing....or if they stayed the same

- is the term proofing mentioned at the club ?
- what's your definition and has it changed at all since joining ?
- is it done differently for your house dogs as compared to your club dog, etc ?
 

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Discussion Starter #44
Khoi
you laid it out in three simple steps
- how do you determine when to go to step 2 ?
- do you mix 1 and 2 together or do you stop using food and use all toys ?
- you've said before you don't use corrections in step 1, so does that mean corrections start in 2 or 3 ?
- do you condition the dog to electric or prongs before you use them ? (will you put them on the dog in step 2 but not use them, or wait til step 3, etc)

i like what you wrote but have a hard time seeing how they go together and i assume some are combined.

i like to use the KISS principle, but it would be easier for me to understand if you filled in a few more blanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
i also think this issue is very relevant to any discussion of proofing

- when do you know that the dog knows, and do you mean knows the drill or or knows the COMMAND ?

- it ALWAYS comes up when corrections are discussed, no matter how you define a "correction" :)
 

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Rick, on my end it's determined by consistency in expected behaviors irrespective of variables that may exist.

That's about as direct I can regarding the question you asked.

Example - HERE means return to me directly in front, paired with a sit. Variables could be on a ramp, a 6" beam, sitting in a chair, on top of any number of surfaces/barriers I might have laid out or placed before me. This might take place in water, who knows.

HEEL - the same set of behaviors are expected regardless of surface, tight quarters, other dogs, people, with obstacles in the way (a 12" ladder laid on the ground for example).

Anyway, that's all I got to say. I guess.
 

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Nicole. Forgive me. I forget about you avoidance issues on the R subject. :grin: :wink:.......:twisted:


"Rick, on my end it's determined by consistency in expected behaviors irrespective of variables that may exist".


Well said! I think personal experience is what most people that have done and good dog training would agree with.

Without that experience I believe someone WITH that experience need to be in charge of the training.

As Rick often comments about it being hard to make a call on something he can't see.

A great explanation from the person asking the question can help but a video is great.

Second to being there of course.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
based on what i've read so far, proofing is a either continual process, a final step or not always needed

accurate assessment ?
 

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based on what i've read so far, proofing is a either continual process, a final step or not always needed

accurate assessment ?

Now that question brings us back to the old "depends on the dog" :grin: ;-) .

I've had dogs that I don't recall actually proofing them from anything. They just didn't really need it OR it all came easy to them.

Other dogs I know I actively exposed them to a few things that may have created issues if just tossed into a situation.

I will also say that any competition dogs I've had and trained I would intentionally expose them to things and situations regardless of how steady they seemed.

In AKC I've had some nice competition dogs, the last being Thunder.

The least affected of any dog I've owed under any situations BUT in an AKC trial your in a 40'x40' ring with hundreds of dogs and people jammed around the ring.

I guess in the training ring it was probably worth it to have a kid standing there with ice cream or a hot dog, right out site the ring 3-4 ft from the dog. :ring: ;-).

I don't ever recall him needing that when under command but he adored my youngest grandson and the other four grand kids so it thought it might be a good idea.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
re : "Now that question brings us back to the old "depends on the dog""
maybe for you but not for me :)

EVERYTHING ... 'depends on the dog' :)
starting to become a circular thread .....
-- next comes "all training techniques 'depend on the dog'" (rotflmao)

i started this thread with a specific statement
* please re-read it
it explained the diffs i see all the time between the "rinse and repeat" method vs proofing as a specific and final step

i'm just totally amazed that proofing seems to mean so many different things
....or maybe everyone is just trying to say the same thing different ways :)

starting with a freaking basic recall, which EVERY dog on the planet needs to have proofed or it will be a half ass recall and FAIL when it is most needed
- no matter whether it's a backyard pet, AKC show dog, truck dog, hunter, IPO/PSA competitor, PPD/PSD/MWD or SAR K9

i'll introduce and teach a dog a new behavior with the least pressure and conflict, increase that and raise the bar, add corrections when it i'm getting consistent compliance at about the 80% level......then proof the crap of it so i KNOW it will respond when i tell it to do it
- and the best trainers i've seen were the ones with the most imagination applied DURING PROOFING

proof means proof, and for me it will be the ONLY way i can PROVE my training was successful. for me that's why it's a different word from 'training'
...of course it never really ends and depends on the dog in front of me, but for me it is the last step in a planned process and not venue specific

wasn't expecting Khoi to reply to my questions but surprised Gina didn't weigh in since she is in a great position to be reconsidering and moulding her views on serious training

amazed this had so many different interpretations but glad i'm now aware there are so many ways to look at this
 

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Discussion Starter #53
the only detail i have left out is for me proofing DEFINITELY means applying pressure......if my training has been correct the dog will already be conditioned to pressure and will power thru it when i throw the kitchen sink at it !!!

why i enjoyed reading that quote even if he was only referring to mental pressure :)
no one could possibly disagree that skidboot was not thoroughly proofed for his line of 'work' //LOL//
 

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dog will already be conditioned to pressure and will power thru it when i throw the kitchen sink at it !!!

You mean you HOPE he will power thru it when you throw the sink at him LOL!
 

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Discussion Starter #55
"HOPE ?"
- for SURE....always a big dose of hope !!! :)
- and i've made my share of dumb ass mistakes

but i hope when i get to the proofing stage i've been reading the dog in front of me well enough know how big a sink it can handle :)

actually, my main reason to start this thread was to try and find a better way to explain proofing to owners i work with :)
 

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I don't do anything to "proof" I don't even know what it means. I train, and if my dog isn't reliable in a situation, I manage. Meaning, if I don't think my dog is going to recall, I don't let him off leash. When I feel ready, I compete. I've learned not to be too cocky at that point - pretty much every trial I've been to from Dock Diving to IPO I've heard at least one handler say "Well, he's never done that before..." It may even have been said by me a time or two. I figure if we fail, lose points or make mistakes, it just tells me what I need to work on.
 

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"HOPE ?"
- for SURE....always a big dose of hope !!! :)
- and i've made my share of dumb ass mistakes

but i hope when i get to the proofing stage i've been reading the dog in front of me well enough know how big a sink it can handle :)

actually, my main reason to start this thread was to try and find a better way to explain proofing to owners i work with :)

NOT ME~ :roll: I never make dumb ass mistakes HAHAHA
 

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actually, my main reason to start this thread was to try and find a better way to explain proofing to owners i work with
Maybe instead of explaining it in dog terms you pull some examples from human life they could relate to. Some people have trouble with third party extrapolation.

Once they understand that then I say its the same way with dogs. They usually get it then.
 

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Rick, great thread! Thanks for asking my opinion too. I don't think my inexperienced definition would add anything. I've always liked the idea of real world scenarios for training. I know real world and proofing aren't interchangeable terms, but share elements. If I had the choice, I think I'd be in a club like Khoi' s. My IPO club is awesome with keeping distractions to a minimum and progressing slowly. This is building my pups understanding and confidence. I still plan on returning to Adlerhorst, for part of what I consider proofing. I differ with most of my club members in thinking a prong or using my dog's name with commands is usually abusive. I want a dog that is tough enough for any training method that could be beneficial. Then again, I thank God for Matt and others that have helped me reevaluate tougher methods for my young dog. To me, proofing is huge even though I'm just learning what it is. Titles might be nice, but I just want my dog trained to my standards, which means I can take him anywhere he is allowed and he will respond correctly. As from my club members, I haven't heard the term proofing. I shouldn't speak for them, but for most, its eyes on the prize. So, I think proofing is only relevant to things that have a fair possibility of being encountered on the tracking field or other field. If something really unexpected happens, that's just unlucky and it's not worth training for. That's is just what I interpret. On the other hand, we might host a temperament type test to see how dogs respond in certain situations (stranger, sounds, etc), but that's not proofing. I took Kibo to a pirate fair with cannons and dogs, but that's another story. Thanks for reading a long response.
 

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One more thought from the novice point of view that hopefully has some relavence to proofing, but may not. As for my pets, I've expected them to roll with many scenarios. My Dobe was a tad sharp, but very composed with kids and people. I expected her or any of my dogs to respond safely if someone ran up and hugged them. IMO, it is my job to prepare for this stuff with ALL my dogs. A powerful dog with high prey and protection drive, like my neighbor's Rott, that reacts strongly to my little kids, I dont like. IMO, a dog should be able to respond to basic obedience with kids around, period. Dogs that go from crate/run to the practice field and are proofed only for what happens there, may really have Stockholm syndrome, or what ever that may be. A recall anywhere may be the best test of the ultimately proofed dog. But I know everyone has different desires and skill sets, but I wouldn't ever blame it on the dog's temperament. You wanted it, now work with it and give it an enriched life. Off topic? Sorry! I'll stop.
 
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