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I think marker training is all about creating that bond.

I've mentioned before that it's more about imprinting behaviors with the dog as opposed to actually training.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
agree markers is a good system. i like it and ever since i learned i use it 90% of the time. the system used will definitely affect the bond as it develops

- but pure physical compulsion is another system that can work equally as well if the dog is capable
- so is the Kohler method
- there are others

many have been used for dog training over the years

don't know about PSD's that much but military K9 training does not stress markers, yet all military K9's are tightly bonded with their handlers.
- so i have to go with trust and respect no matter which training method you use to get there. that's why i separate bond building with training and gave those example to Jeremy and thought they could possibly apply, over and above whatever training system he is currently using

and if you consider proofing in the traditional sense that i do, the bond problems may not show up until you get to the proofing stages, and may not be obvious in the preliminary stages of training
- maybe this doesn't make sense to others...hard to explain in words
 

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can you quickly lift up your dog, sling it over your shoulders and go jogging with it and have it stay relaxed when you do that ? if it tenses up or gets real fidgety, you prob are looking at a trust issue unless you are lifting it improperly :)
Or, I suppose the possibility does exist that the dog may just be too heavy to handle like that.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
i posted TWO methods. could post more of course; that anyone can do with any dog regardless of size

i'm more curious if he had considered testing the trust factor, or tried either technique, and i'll wait for Jeremy to respond. if he is interested in more i'll provide some

otherwise i'll wait to read if anyone has more to say about proofing, since that might also help him

if he doesn't think the thread applies to him, he'll probably not post anymore, and that's no biggy either :)
 

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Discussion Starter #26
here's another one Jeremy

put your dog in a sit and go behind him
try and get him to settle first if he is squirmy with you immediately behind him

slowly but steadily, reach around with both hands and grasp his muzzle and slowly lift his head straight up and back towards you.
- does he allow you to do this without tensing up ?
- how far will he allow you to lift his muzzle ?
- does he keep his eyes open ?

i think this shows more about trust than how submissive he is and how much flexibility he has in his neck :)

i've tried this with many dogs who had difficulties

my point is : how can you tell if a dog trusts you, and why i think it's relative while proofing

of course NOTHING is absolute :)
 

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here's another one Jeremy

put your dog in a sit and go behind him
try and get him to settle first if he is squirmy with you immediately behind him

slowly but steadily, reach around with both hands and grasp his muzzle and slowly lift his head straight up and back towards you.
- does he allow you to do this without tensing up ?
- how far will he allow you to lift his muzzle ?
- does he keep his eyes open ?

i think this shows more about trust than how submissive he is and how much flexibility he has in his neck :)

i've tried this with many dogs who had difficulties

my point is : how can you tell if a dog trusts you, and why i think it's relative while proofing

of course NOTHING is absolute :)
Rick ...to touch on a mention you made about "trust" ... in my training I have found over the years that trust is a BIG KEY to breaking barriers in training. I spend more time doing that with the dogs than ANYTHING else. Its a great transition move during training.... it builds confidence in the dog and when the dog is confident they snap and pop like we want and I am confident in his ability to get the work done. We do a bit working with the dogs we call "ping ponging"... a fun name for basically just quickly moving from one behavior to another randomly and using props like casting tables, target boxes, balance beams, jumps etc. During this exercise I will ask for something totally new and random and be sure the dog doesn't fail (BIG KEY) then move back into familiar territory... this will propel the dog quickly through the training AND create better handler focus through conditioning...the dog looks to you for the next cue... just wanted to touch on that topic a bit although outside the scope really of proofing I suppose but a very important part of the training process IMO and something new trainers can add to their arsenal right away.
 

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Rick, my dog will do both of the things you asked. The carrying and jumping.
The muzzle thing, I've been doing that for a while, in a way.
I always wondered if it was the dog more so than me. Lol
Lots of interesting information. I am with him and he's proven a willingness to work.
I've got so far to go. Anyone need an apprentice? Lol, kidding
 

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Discussion Starter #29
cool drill Brian ... i can see a lot of bennies besides just a confidence builder

Jeremy; glad your dog is coming along, just don't get in robot mode :) raise the bar and challenge him ....with a little imagination there are tons of variations to the carry drill...just keep it safe. dog's brains are small and they can get bored too. the better the dog the more it probably needs to be challenged

the stuff i was mentioning is more to get a baseline to see where you're starting out with him
- i've seen people who can't even get their dog to roll over, and they make an excuse that's its too "dominant", and then they actually actually defend that attitude and say they don't want a dog that will roll over or show its belly:)
- well, if that was true i've seen a lot of weak submissive mwd's that still bite and grip pretty damn hard //rotflmao//

"I've got so far to go" ?? ...wtf?..we ALL do //lol//
one day/step at a time just keep moving even if you go too fast and have to back up. that happens to everyone too

it's not fun all the time but if it's not fun most of the time - get a hamster !
 

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Rick, my dog will do both of the things you asked. The carrying and jumping.
The muzzle thing, I've been doing that for a while, in a way.
I always wondered if it was the dog more so than me. Lol
Lots of interesting information. I am with him and he's proven a willingness to work.
I've got so far to go. Anyone need an apprentice? Lol, kidding
The bad news is I have been at it for 30 odd years and still have far to go ... but it does get easier and the more dogs the better.
 

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Lol, are you justifying me getting another dog, or just gaining more experience?

Jeremy you know there are NEVER enough working dogs hanging around LOL ... ones sanity comes in to question sometimes but hey! There are a lot worse things we can be doing HHAHAH
 

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Rick ...to touch on a mention you made about "trust" ... in my training I have found over the years that trust is a BIG KEY to breaking barriers in training. I spend more time doing that with the dogs than ANYTHING else. Its a great transition move during training.... it builds confidence in the dog and when the dog is confident they snap and pop like we want and I am confident in his ability to get the work done. We do a bit working with the dogs we call "ping ponging"... a fun name for basically just quickly moving from one behavior to another randomly and using props like casting tables, target boxes, balance beams, jumps etc. During this exercise I will ask for something totally new and random and be sure the dog doesn't fail (BIG KEY) then move back into familiar territory... this will propel the dog quickly through the training AND create better handler focus through conditioning...the dog looks to you for the next cue... just wanted to touch on that topic a bit although outside the scope really of proofing I suppose but a very important part of the training process IMO and something new trainers can add to their arsenal right away.
Excellent response. Very relatable and I couldn't agree more.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Brian
tx for showing up...about time :)
regarding proofing
i often condense the whole process by explaining it this way :

start to train a new behavior by "setting it up to succeed", continue reps to get the behavior consistent and once it's reliable and i feel the dog knows the command, add appropriate corrections for non-compliance, and finally transition to what i call the "setting it up to fail" or proofing stage; meaning throw every variable i can at the dog to try and make it ignore the command as if it was hardwired to respond without even considering anymore that non compliance is an option

just curious....am i anywhere close to being on the same page with how you view the proofing stage ?

- i realize the process is never this tidy and never really finished :)
- but the main point of my thread was to see how others fit in proofing and it seems like i might be out in right field somewhere :)
- as if proofing and training are almost synonyms
 

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Discussion Starter #35
by the way
i'll post the quote anyway //lol//

about a very cool little dog many of you might remember

“Well, I never did like to call it tricks. He didn’t really do a trick, he just did what I said. I never did count, he was still trying to learn new things till his dying day. He was obsessive about trying to please me. He was constantly trying to be a human being. He just liked the challenge. You know that “sneaking up on the ball and backing away” thing he became famous for? I don’t think a lot of people understood what that was about. That was about me trying to tell him what to do and then trying to trick him to see if he could keep from getting messed up. His goal was not so much to do what I said, but to prove to me I couldn’t trick him. He loved to be challenged.”

for me it was a unique way to describe proofing
 

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Brian
tx for showing up...about time :)
regarding proofing
i often condense the whole process by explaining it this way :

start to train a new behavior by "setting it up to succeed", continue reps to get the behavior consistent and once it's reliable and i feel the dog knows the command, add appropriate corrections for non-compliance, and finally transition to what i call the "setting it up to fail" or proofing stage; meaning throw every variable i can at the dog to try and make it ignore the command as if it was hardwired to respond without even considering anymore that non compliance is an option

just curious....am i anywhere close to being on the same page with how you view the proofing stage ?

- i realize the process is never this tidy and never really finished :)
- but the main point of my thread was to see how others fit in proofing and it seems like i might be out in right field somewhere :)
- as if proofing and training are almost synonyms
I see proofing exactly as you describe above. In the training here it would be simply ,... 1. will the dog recall 2. can I shut the dog down 3. will the dog engage on cue all bullet proof and without fail. If they dont meet those basic criteria then its back to the drawing board. I have trained hundreds of dogs (some fully and some partially) and I dont believe that I have to this point seen one that wouldnt fail at some point either in training or in real world duty. I struggled with that for years. Then one day I realized that even at their worst a well trained well bred dog is less prone to failure than a human in a lot of the cases a poorly trained dog fails less than a human LOL ...we do gradually ramp up pressure on the dog incrementally rather than throwing them to the proverbial wolves and I see that in some peoples training sometimes..that creates problems that can be hard to fix. I stay out there in right field somewhere about 2/3 of the time anyway ... dont believe me? Ask my wife she reminds me a lot LOL
 

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cool drill Brian ... i can see a lot of bennies besides just a confidence builder

Jeremy; glad your dog is coming along, just don't get in robot mode :) raise the bar and challenge him ....with a little imagination there are tons of variations to the carry drill...just keep it safe. dog's brains are small and they can get bored too. the better the dog the more it probably needs to be challenged

the stuff i was mentioning is more to get a baseline to see where you're starting out with him
- i've seen people who can't even get their dog to roll over, and they make an excuse that's its too "dominant", and then they actually actually defend that attitude and say they don't want a dog that will roll over or show its belly:)
- well, if that was true i've seen a lot of weak submissive mwd's that still bite and grip pretty damn hard //rotflmao//

"I've got so far to go" ?? ...wtf?..we ALL do //lol//
one day/step at a time just keep moving even if you go too fast and have to back up. that happens to everyone too

it's not fun all the time but if it's not fun most of the time - get a hamster !
Hamsters are horrible little bastards
 

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cool drill Brian ... i can see a lot of bennies besides just a confidence builder

Jeremy; glad your dog is coming along, just don't get in robot mode :) raise the bar and challenge him ....with a little imagination there are tons of variations to the carry drill...just keep it safe. dog's brains are small and they can get bored too. the better the dog the more it probably needs to be challenged

the stuff i was mentioning is more to get a baseline to see where you're starting out with him
- i've seen people who can't even get their dog to roll over, and they make an excuse that's its too "dominant", and then they actually actually defend that attitude and say they don't want a dog that will roll over or show its belly:)
- well, if that was true i've seen a lot of weak submissive mwd's that still bite and grip pretty damn hard //rotflmao//

"I've got so far to go" ?? ...wtf?..we ALL do //lol//
one day/step at a time just keep moving even if you go too fast and have to back up. that happens to everyone too

it's not fun all the time but if it's not fun most of the time - get a hamster !
Sali will roll on her back for belly rubs and most of you know what she is like, about as far from submissive as you can get (for anyone that doesn't). Some people are weird.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Matt
re : "Hamsters are horrible little bastards"

quite often i imagine they are, and they would probably fit my def of a social butterfly :)
- never had one for a pet but have had kids bring theirs over for dog training sessions ... and giving my house dog a chance to get a woody since he thinned out the local population of moles and iitachiis (JA word for a type of weasel)

you still got snakes right ?
 

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Hamsters are the worst of the rodent pets for biting.

Honestly, the best of them is a rat. Most intelligent and less prone to biting then any of the little varmints.

I have one 5+ft corn snake. At one time I had 15 snakes of different types.
 
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