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Discussion Starter #1
for me, it's an essential part of any training plan that has a definite meaning, and for me, it's more than just "rinsing and repeating" while adding more and more distractions. that's what i usually see when i'm working with someone, and although that process certainly helps, it's not exactly what i'm trying to get them to do

i've always struggled with how to describe it so i'm interested in starting a discussion about how others describe it.
as in: when to start, how to apply, to correct or not to correct, examples, etc etc

so if you care to take a shot at it, please do. it'll help me since i don't always get my point across when i'm showing the process to a customer.

i found a quote that might be just the ticket, but won't post it until anyone interested has a chance to post their definitions :)

i think it will help anyone new to dogs and a lot of the regulars certainly can give guidance that is worth TRYING as well as reading about

btw, i HAVE given my definition here before, but it's been awhile , and probably wasn't clear then either. i'm in no rush...will give it a week or so to see if it gets going //lol//
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Geoff should be coming out of hibernation about now...hope he's still around....his insight would help any new members as well as the old ones :)
 

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I'll take a stab. When I'm proofing my dog, I like to start away from a distraction. Then work closer and closer.
Proofing to me is being able to intercede attention on a distraction.
Turn that to my command and perform. Its important to the fact of safety, and duty. I might never need a dog to down in public, but I might need my dog to listen. By proofing, I am ensuring he's focusing on me.
If that makes sense....
 

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FOR ME proofing is exposing the dog/pup to anything and every thing in both training and life in general.



We can proof off of most anything BUT we need to understand the individual dog/pup.

If the dog/pup is a bit on the soft side then obviously we wouldn't toss it in the fire right off the bat.

I explained that a bit when I talked about proofing Thunder from gunfire.

I "expected" he would be solid as a rock so that determined the distance I started with.

I've never shot over my present dog Trooper but I know I would start further away.

In other words you can't offer a random time, distance, etc without understanding the individual dog or pup's general temperament.

Make sense?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Tx guys for posting your thoughts on proofing

it's kinda mind blowing in a way. VERY interesting !
- a member with not quite 20 posts to a guy with over 20,000 //lol//
- that's quite a contrast, and makes me even more interested to hear what proofing means to others.

i will wait it out a few more days or so like i said
if i weigh in now i'm sure i would be accused of trying to hog my own thread too much :) as you all know i don't have as much patience with people as i do with dogs. unlike cesar, i never expect much from a dog i work with for a few WEEKS rather than minutes.....even if a few things change quickly and seem like "a miracle" to the owner//rotflmao//

hope the topic stays focused on PROOFING. i realize it's sometimes hard not to use your own dog for an example, but i hope we can discuss proofing in a generic sense too
 

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Discussion Starter #6
on second thought, i'm gonna finish this quick and give the short answer
'cause i am way far off the same sheet as you guys

for me proofing comes LAST and it is setting up the dog to FAIL
for me training is planned process, not a constant
i start by setting the dog up to SUCCEED, and proofing doesn't even enter into my mind at ALL in the beginning
...many many steps in between but i see no point in getting into the details i was interested in

a very quick wrap for me this time :)

to close the loop, the quote i was referring to was a quote about skidboot :)

of course.....carry on :)
 

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Bloody hell I find myself agreeing with you again Rick, this really must stop, lol. :p

I don't formally proof my dogs, I rely on their training and the bond situation almost entirely.
A good example of this is my vids of Hector and the train vids I posted on here before.
Can you explain how you trust a dog to rely on the training and bond? Not being sarcastic. I'm on my first dog, so trying to learn some.
 

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And for me, proofing is exposing the dogs to items I don't want them to alert on and either correcting or refusing to accept the alert. It's not setting up a dog to fail but rather given the opportunity to ignore distractors

Proofing is the way we know the dog alerts to the odors he has been trained for while ignoring others.

I think the definition of 'proofing' changes depending on the venue.
 

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Can you explain how you trust a dog to rely on the training and bond? Not being sarcastic. I'm on my first dog, so trying to learn some.
I'm afraid it's 40+ years of dogs, I kinda know when something is straight or not (to my criteria) :-({|=
However I must say I have learned more in the last say 10 years than I did in the previous 30+ thanks to THE GREATEST INVENTION OF ALL TIME \\:D/
 

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I teach with food as a reward ( new exercise), train with toy as a reward ( doing something he already knows), and then proof the exercise with electric or prong. So proof to me is the last stage, the dog must perform and exercise that he already knows NO MATTER where, when or what is going around him.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Jeremy
- suggestion
i think you need to separate 'training' and 'bonding'
- don't wanna put words in your mouth so i would need to know what you mean by a bond...it varies from person to person

for me "bond" is simply : mutual respect and trust to/from the owner/handler (both ways)
- it really has little to do with training behaviors and i don't even think you can train a proper bond

you have to DEVELOP it, and the trust and respect doesn't always get handed out in the proper percentages (50/50) the day you get your pup or dog :)


some take it for granted and some explain it in very strange terms, but the bottom line is it's either great, bad, or somewhere in between and it's not always a constant; it can change
- if it's great, you can accomplish a lot more with your training .....duh :)

i think it helps to evaluate it from time to time, but sometimes, we get lost in the trees and need an outside source to help us evaluate it (trainers) and "readjust" it or tweak it

probably more than you cared to read ... wanted to post it anyway :)
- and curious how you define it, test it and develop it
 

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Jeremy
- suggestion
i think you need to separate 'training' and 'bonding'
- don't wanna put words in your mouth so i would need to know what you mean by a bond...it varies from person to person

for me "bond" is simply : mutual respect and trust to/from the owner/handler (both ways)
- it really has little to do with training behaviors and i don't even think you can train a proper bond

you have to DEVELOP it, and the trust and respect doesn't always get handed out in the proper percentages (50/50) the day you get your pup or dog :)


some take it for granted and some explain it in very strange terms, but the bottom line is it's either great, bad, or somewhere in between and it's not always a constant; it can change
- if it's great, you can accomplish a lot more with your training .....duh :)

i think it helps to evaluate it from time to time, but sometimes, we get lost in the trees and need an outside source to help us evaluate it (trainers) and "readjust" it or tweak it

probably more than you cared to read ... wanted to post it anyway :)
- and curious how you define it, test it and develop it
I'm not the best in explaining my thoughts so I'll do my best.
To me a bond is about the dog with the owner. Following without a leash, wanting to please an owner. A dog can have a bond and be untrained. Just looking to an owner as a part of its life. Almost work with as opposed to work for.
I build a bond starting from day one. I like to allow off leash exercise, hiking, spending quality time, not just quantity time, together. A puppy will naturally follow an owner in my experience. I've seen this with my boxer, my ex wife's toy mutt, and my gsd. Play time and effort from me goes a long way. I see people all the time not enjoying time with their dog. Just wanting a lawn ornament. As an owner I want to engage my dog.
The best way I can test it is what does my dog do when their is something else to distract it's attention. Coyote's, deer carcasses, other dogs, etc, and my dogs have ignored them.

As you can tell, I've got a lot to learn and a long way to go. And I'm not the best at explaining. Lol
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Jeremy
your explanation and the way you wrote it is CRYSTAL clear. you don't have any problem expressing yourself !

all i would add is i believe a bond involves more than doing a lot of fun stuff with your dog and that's why i broke it down into 2 : trust/respect. these are measurable and when they are out of balance they will affect your training if you go beyond basic dog tricks

very quick example...you and your dog really love each other and do fun stuff together all the time, but someone walks by too close and your dog snaps at them. your dog needs a correction for that kinda behavior and the timing must be QUICK. if your dog RESPECTS you, it should be able to handle the correction, learn a lesson and think twice before repeating it. if it doesn't, the 'frame of mind' might continue and it will snap at you too when you correct it....and the dog will still love you as much as it did before the incident
- hypothetical ? yes...but i wouldn't put it in the 'rarely if ever happens' category //LOL//

you will get other definitions if mine don't make sense to you so feel free to ask
 

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Discussion Starter #17
re : "Almost work with as opposed to work for."
yes, that would be ideal and certainly happens when a bond is strong

unfortunately, in some professions a dog will also be asked to work FOR, and the handler must make a decision that might cost the dog its life. the trust factor will certainly be tested and a dog who has absolute trust will not hesitate to respond and go beyond what it has been trained for on a practice field

extreme case, but in simpler terms.... does your dog trust you enough to jump over a high obstacle when it doesn't know and can't see what's on the other side ?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
or an even better one you can (and maybe should) practice a lot

can you quickly lift up your dog, sling it over your shoulders and go jogging with it and have it stay relaxed when you do that ?

if it tenses up or gets real fidgety, you prob are looking at a trust issue unless you are lifting it improperly :)
 

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Discussion Starter #20
deja vous moment....

if you trip, crash and burn, you might have a set back on the trust side //LOL//

don't ask me how i know that (where'e the embarrassed emoji?)

promise i'll STFU now
 
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