[Mike Schoonbrood]

We don't have many good discussions going on actual training so figured I'd try n start something....

Does anyone here put their dog on a prong during bitework? If so, what is your reason for doing so and what differences do you see in the dogs work vs. working on a flat collar or a harness?

 

[Woody Taylor]

We don't have many good discussions going on actual training so figured I'd try n start something....

Does anyone here put their dog on a prong during bitework? If so, what is your reason for doing so and what differences do you see in the dogs work vs. working on a flat collar or a harness?

You're just talking about agitation stuff, or....? what's yer 'bitework' definition...

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

Put the dog on a prong collar (2 rings so it's not acting like a choker) and have a decoy agitate the dog.

Also to add to the original question...

If you do this, at what stage of the training do you introduce the dog to bitework on a prong and what "drive" do you want to work the dog in when you do this? Are you trying to do back n forth prey work or more confrontational/challenging the dog?

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

Also, what type of dog would you do this with and what are you trying to achieve out of it?

 

[Woody Taylor]

Put the dog on a prong collar (2 rings so it's not acting like a choker) and have a decoy agitate the dog.

Argh, I am in the minority and a worthless noob, but I never get the whole dead ring thing. It's just not a pinch at that point, IMN(ewb)O opinion...

So at least one trainer I know will do this. I do not know if it's to conserve energy of the dog...guess basically the same rationale for why lots of folks don't like harnesses?

 

[Tim Martens]

Put the dog on a prong collar (2 rings so it's not acting like a choker) and have a decoy agitate the dog.

Argh, I am in the minority and a worthless noob, but I never get the whole dead ring thing. It's just not a pinch at that point, IMN(ewb)O opinion...

So at least one trainer I know will do this. I do not know if it's to conserve energy of the dog...guess basically the same rationale for why lots of folks don't like harnesses?

with my first two dogs, all agitation/bitework was done on a flat collar. with my current dog, i use the prong. control is much more of an issue with this dog as he has more "drive" (insert whatever definition or drive you desire here). for me, it's just a matter of control. he barely responds to prong corrections. flat collar corrections do nothing but get me tired...

 

[Woody Taylor]

with my current dog, i use the prong. control is much more of an issue with this dog as he has more "drive" (insert whatever definition or drive you desire here)

That makes sense to me. How are you clipping it on him? (dead vs live)...and how tightly are you fitting it? Does it ever do any damage?

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

young dogs on a flat, older (knowing they may bite) dogs on a prong (live).

 

[David Frost]

I'm an old choker guy. I stick with the choker for nearly everything, including a dead link for beginning tracking.

DFrost

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

Choker is good, if you can work it..and I can´t :roll:

 

[Kristen Cabe]

All the dogs at my club are agitated either on a prong collar (live ring) or a fursaver ('dead' ring). Some also wear an e-collar, in addition to the fursaver or prong. I still don't fully understand the reasoning behind using a prong collar for agitation work, but the reason that I have gotten when I've asked about it is that it causes the dog to show more aggression towards the helper because when he hits the end of the leash, it hurts, and he associates that hurt with the helper. I haven't seen dogs younger than 18 months on a prong during bitework. I know a few handlers that use the prong during bitework simply because the dog "pulls too much," but I really don't like that reason for using it. One handler even puts his dog on a prong when the dog is on the backtie. No one uses the 'two-leash' method at my club, where one leash is attached to the agitation collar and another to a correction collar. No one uses a harness or wide collar for agitation either. The reasoning there is that the dog associates bitework with those pieces of equipment, and when those pieces of equipment are taken out of the picture, the dog may not perform as well. My TD also believes that wide collars hinder barking because they allow the dog to pull against them harder. The only dogs that get to wear a regular flat collar are the young puppies. Everyone else's everyday collar is the fursaver, and either fursaver or prong is used during training.

 

[Khoi Pham]

I use it for creating conflict to bring out more aggression during the bark & hold in the blind, decoy will pop the whip and he will get prong, my dog is thinking I am doing the right thing, bark and not bite but I'm still getting prong and so he get pissed and put the aggression toward the decoy since he assiociate the whip with prong, his bark is much more serious instead of a bark for reward bite. Timing must be right or if you have a strong dog, he might get pissed and turn around and bite the handler for what he thinks is a unfair correction.

 

[Andres Martin]

In bitework, I mainly use a prong (live ring) to teach the revier as an intensity builder and a distance limiter. But I also use it to quicken the return from an out. (Not in the same sessions). I try to keep one or two goals in mind per session. I do not use it to agitate, unless I'm teaching the dog self control with a decoy that's simply moving in a strange manner...not agitating the dog. But I put it on the dog without using it for a bunch of other things. All equipment should be transparently interchangeable...and the dog should not associate one piece for one purpose...it should associate ANY piece with WORK.

Sometimes, also to teach "out", to increase the bite depth, or to release cleanly and stay clean, and many other things.

Mike...regarding what drive, what type of dog, what purposes...this is a very ample subject, because there is no definitive answer. Plus, each trainer has his own "bag of tricks". So the prongs have different uses, for different dogs, in different moments and for different purposes, and that changes according to what you see. Dog training is mostly not a science...it's an art.

 

[Greg Long]

I start all dogs out in bitework on the prong and always on the dead ring.In fact I never ever use the live ring for anything.If the dog is showing to be overly sensitive to the prong during bitework then it gets the flat collar.Some dogs will shut down if they are really sensitive or are not used to the prong.
My pups have a prong on most of the time so they are really used to it and it doesnt seem to ever be a problem.
I dont backtie pups or dogs for agitation or bitework unless it is just to watch the other dogs work.

As far as what "drive" I really dont know.Aggressive drive I guess... :lol:

The decoy work is mostly confrontational without excessive movement.This is the same with young pups as with older dogs.

As for barking,I just as soon my dogs not bark..its just a waste of energy.

 

[Daniel Cox]

at my club

At our club we generally start all dogs out on a large flat leather collar. I like to use either a 1 1/2 or 2 inch leather collar. We generally use the flat collar for all the drive building and then switch to a pinch once we want to teach the bark and hold. If we do use the pinch for bitework then we hook to both rings. Most of our dogs in the club could be worked on a fursaver or just about any collar but it is generally more comfortable for the dog if you use a large flat collar IMHO. I think a large flat collar allows the dog to pull harder and build more drive. I think for most high drive working dogs the collar does not matter but why work your dog on a pinch in bitework unless you are trying to teach him something.

 

[Sarah Hall]

Depends on the dog. Carbon hasn't even seen a prong, and won't until about 18 months old. If the dog is wary of strangers and could possibly pose a threat, I use a prong. I also would use one to build the aggrivation on a guard.

 

[Andres Martin]

No one uses the 'two-leash' method at my club, where one leash is attached to the agitation collar and another to a correction collar. No one uses a harness or wide collar for agitation either. The reasoning there is that the dog associates bitework with those pieces of equipment, and when those pieces of equipment are taken out of the picture, the dog may not perform as well.

Kristen...

A dog will also strongly associate the training field, the tree from which it is tied, the use of a long line, a particular bag being brought out, other dogs being agitated, the clothes you put on, the time of day, the stuff you put in your car, your body posture, your smell (of tension and stress), the sleeve/suit/tug, the agitators movement, the stick, etc. to bitework. It amazes me the level of nuance and subtlety a dog picks up on.

A quick question: How loud do you say "Out" for your dog to let go? How loud have you heard other people say it?

My point is this: make sure you put all the ingredients (equipment) IN the soup; and take MOST of the ingredients out. What you really want is for your dog to associate his aggression to aggression against him or you, or to cues given by YOU. These are the left-over ingredients.

As for the prong...in my opinion, if I need it for capping, it means I don't have the dog I should have. For my dog, I use the prong strictly as a correction, coming from me. As far as helping with other people's dogs, sure, I'll use it for capping. It works best when the dog in question, DOES NOT regularly use a prong collar, is a high prey drive dog, and is also quite hard.

 

[Sarah Hall]

Andres:
My answer to the "out" question: However loud you need to!
Seriously though, I've heard people that only had to say their "out" command in a normal tone of voice. And then, there's the people with either very high drive dogs or very LOUD dogs that practically scream it. It all depends on the dog you're working with.

 

[Kristen Cabe]

Kristen...

A dog will also strongly associate the training field, the tree from which it is tied, the use of a long line, a particular bag being brought out, other dogs being agitated, the clothes you put on, the time of day, the stuff you put in your car, your body posture, your smell (of tension and stress), the sleeve/suit/tug, the agitators movement, the stick, etc. to bitework. It amazes me the level of nuance and subtlety a dog picks up on.

My point is this: make sure you put all the ingredients (equipment) IN the soup; and take MOST of the ingredients out. What you really want is for your dog to associate his aggression to aggression against him or you, or to cues given by YOU. These are the left-over ingredients.

I completely get what you're saying; I was just explaining the reasoning that I was given by the other people at my club. I don't think they were saying the dog wouldn't perform at all - they were saying he might not perform as well as he would with the agitation collar or harness on. Just as you might reason that a dog might not perform as well on a new field vs. his home field, or with a different helper, or different type of helper than he's used to (ie: race or sex). That's all. I haven't been at this long enough to have reasonings of my own yet, :lol: so what I posted was just what I've been told by my club.

A quick question: How loud do you say "Out" for your dog to let go? How loud have you heard other people say it?

I don't say "Aus" yet, aside from when I'm playing with Jak at home and I want him to give me a toy. I use a normal tone of voice for all of my commands, though, with both dogs. I've heard it said in both a normal tone of voice and also yelled, like Sarah said. At my club, most of the people use a normal to slightly-louder-than-normal tone of voice for the out command.

I don't understand why you asked this question, though. Could you explain?

 

[Andres Martin]

A quick question: How loud do you say "Out" for your dog to let go? How loud have you heard other people say it?

I don't understand why you asked this question, though. Could you explain?

...because a great many people do not use a dog's listening/attention ability/capability. The "OOOUUUTTT" is a clear example of this. Regarding a dog's capacity for nuance, most people don't use it, recognize it, demand it...etc. If you must rely on exaggerated stimuli to get the dog to bite, to grip, to release, to find, etc. you will forever be "bartering" with your dog: "If you do this, I'll give you that..."

This is not to say bartering has no place, nor that dog's don't OFTEN choose to disobey (once the cue/behavior combo has been understood).