[Patrick Murray]

I understand that PSA & ASR are protection-based sports. But does that mean that a real-world, bona fide PPD dog can go in and compete, get titled and even win a trial? If not, then the program is more about sport than actual real-world protection; is it not? I have no doubt that the PSA/ASR dogs would protect; that's not an issue or a question to me. It is my impression that certain training that would be done to build a PPD dog would not be used with an ASR/PSA dog as that training might inhibit their scoring in a trail. Again, that is my impression and it may be a mistaken impression. To me the ideal protection based \"sport\" or certification would be based first and last around real-world protection and nothing would be done to deviate from it. Does anyone have anything to say on this subject?

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

To be honest, most of the pp dogs I have seen, are way too weak to do the sport. In no way do I think it is right, but it is my experience. I feel that any dog someone was going to count on in a bad situation should at least be strong enough to do sport.

The other thing that I see is really badly trained PP dogs, that while they might do sport, the owners really only want to see the dog do bitework, and never work OB. I have tried to help friends with their \"awesome\" PP dog tranfer over to sport, but the dog could not deal with the control necessary to do the work.

The bottom line is it is not the sport, or PP that is going to save you in a bad situation, it is the dog. Honestly evaluate your dog. Is he really going to be there?



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[Patrick Murray]

I think those are good points Jeff. But I'm guessing there are many, many excellent PPD dogs out there in homes and businesses that would \"be there\" if things got bad. I'm presuming that those dogs don't get the attention because they're not in trials, etc. and apparently no bad guys are breaking in and getting mauled enough to give them any attention. :mrgreen:

I've found, in my limited dog training experience, that one of the benefits of sport and training clubs, as opposed to training with just one or two other people, is that one has the opportunity to discover training gaps for their PPD or sport dogs. I recently have done some training with some ASR guys and found some areas where we need to improve, and we have. Another benefit is that people active in sports and clubs train more frequently, or so I believe, than some of the PPD dog owners and so their dogs maintain a necessary level of readiness.

To give you an analogy, we could probably take a group of Delta Force commandos and send them on a year long vacation to lay on the beach, drink beer, and watch football all the time and they'd still be a respectable group of fighting men, but they wouldn't be in \"game day\" shape as they were when they were training all the time and it would show. Along the same lines I think it's not accurate to assess a PPD dog as being weak when the reality may be that that dog simply has not been training or training enough or training the right way in some time, if ever. Take that \"weak\" PPD dog, train it right and train often and with a little time we might find that the dog is actually pretty good. So often times, if not most of the time, it's probably less the dog than it is the incorrect or insufficient training and frequency of training.

But if you were training a genetically strong dog to be a \"great\" (don't ask me to define \"great\"... :wink: ) real-world protection dog, would you train it the same way as you would for sport or would you notch up the training in order to make it better on the street and would such training then diminish the dog's scoring on the field?

 

[Patrick Murray]

I'd also like to add that there is such thing as physical toughness and then there is psychological toughness. In other words, a physically tough PPD dog might be very strong in a street fight but might stumble with the psychological \"games\" of the decoys found in protection sports. Obviously that PPD dog should also be worked to withstand this type of pressure too, otherwise that PPD dog is not fully ready.

On the other hand, my impression of sport dogs is that they are conditioned to handle the psychological pressure that is put onto them; but that they deal much less with, if at all, the realities of a not only a big, loud and intimidating bad guy, but one that actually inflicts painful (but not injurious) strikes and kicks on them not once, but repeatedly. I believe in this approach to training a PPD WHEN IT IS DONE INCREMENTALLY and done only when the dog is ready for the progressions. Why? It teaches the dog that it can take punishment, stay in the fight and WIN! If a sport dog has not been through this process then it has not been tested and it may falter in such a real-world scenario.

At least these are my impressions and my beliefs. I may be mistaken. And so that is the reason I have shared my thoughts with others here and have asked for their feedback. Thank you.

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

Patrick raises an interesting point here... lets make this a direct question....

Do you think that a sport dog conditioned psychologically and never experienced pain from a decoy will stay in a fight with a real bad guy that is really fighting back?

 

[Jose Alberto Reanto]

A sport dog works on routines and is well-conditioned for any expected demands by the exercises required in Sports.

A PPD (as the way I know it) works on ever-changing scenarios that simulates real threats under real working conditions. Nothing is drilled nor routined. The dog/handler team is constantly challenged.

Two different worlds and with two different purposes. Nothing wrong as long as one is aware of its use, difference and purpose.

PPDs or any dogs that do real work should be basically calm, stable, street-safe, crowd-safe, kid-safe and more importantly handler-focused. Well, no serious work can be done unless the dog is as such anyway.

Just my opinion...

 

[Patrick Murray]

Thanks Jose for the input. But shouldn't a fully trained PPD be able to go out and handle a sport exercise and at least get a passing score? I would think so. But would the dog exhibit behaviors due to its training that would hinder its scoring? Thanks again.

 

[Bob Scott]

I agree with Jose's comment about ever changing scenarios. Other HUGE influences on what a dog will or will not do in a real life scenario is the character of the dog and the skills of the helper work. At our club (sport), the dogs becomed accostumed to the stick and threats from the helper at the beginning with low levels of both. They are built up to the point of real presure on the dog. Even though it's still done in a very typical sport scenario, ther will be some dogs that, by their own character, will defend in a real life situation. Others never will.
Although I've had no expierience with PPD and ever changing training scenarios, I suspect many PP dogs will still bail in a real life situation. It may take more pressure then a sport trained dog, but it STILL depends first and foremost, on the character of the dog.
I've seen any number of high level sport dogs that could switch over to PPD OR PSD with little work.
Bottom line, the best dogs of either sport or real life scenario can do the job. JMHO!

 

[Jose Alberto Reanto]

Thanks Jose for the input. But shouldn't a fully trained PPD be able to go out and handle a sport exercise and at least get a passing score? I would think so. But would the dog exhibit behaviors due to its training that would hinder its scoring? Thanks again.

Hello Patrick:

My actual nickname is Al, but since there's an Al here, I could settle for Jose though that's what my mom calls me when she's mad at me... :lol: :lol: :lol:

I suppose it can. I think many does that with satisfactory results probably with cross-trained dogs with sports as its foundation. For a dog with a non-sporting foundation, it can be difficult.

Again, nothing but a calm, stable and a thinking dog for real-life work...

 

[Al Curbow]

PPDs or any dogs that do real work should be basically calm, stable, street-safe, crowd-safe, kid-safe and more importantly handler-focused. Well, no serious work can be done unless the dog is as such anyway.

I disagree that no serious work can be done with a PPD that's not street safe, crowd safe and kid safe. My youngest dog doesn't differentiate between young, old, tall, short, etc. He's equally suspicious of everyone and is not a social animal. If ANYONE walked into my house, car, office, etc. with him loose, it'd be ugly, i wanted a PPD and that's what i got, Generalizing about dogs is the same as generalizing about people, they're all different and we're all different. My trainer is excellent and trains PPd's for a living, the whole idea about kids playing with and people petting and the PPD being all social, Well....., that's my awesome, fun showlines dog, just my opinion,
AL

 

[Jose Alberto Reanto]

I disagree that no serious work can be done with a PPD that's not street safe, crowd safe and kid safe. My youngest dog doesn't differentiate between young, old, tall, short, etc. He's equally suspicious of everyone and is not a social animal. If ANYONE walked into my house, car, office, etc. with him loose, it'd be ugly, i wanted a PPD and that's what i got, Generalizing about dogs is the same as generalizing about people, they're all different and we're all different. My trainer is excellent and trains PPd's for a living, the whole idea about kids playing with and people petting and the PPD being all social, Well....., that's my awesome, fun showlines dog, just my opinion,
AL

That's perfectly alright, Al. We can all agree to disagree and still walk free. :lol: :wink:

Dogs like ours are naturally suspicious and wary of strangers. That's what a protection dog should be and you wouldn't like it any other way. I don't allow my dogs to be petted by adults, too. But we all carry a heavy responsibility when owning dogs protective in nature, making sure they are good citizens and not a liability anywhere. To start with, how about working your dog to know which is threat and non-threat. Also, let your dog realize that you dictate the rules of engagement. I'm very sure your trainer or any other will agree with this.

Best regards...

 

[Gregg Tawney]

I think the difficult thing here is that we all have different expectations and demands of our PPDs. It comes down to what your needs are. For example, if we train a dog for someone that lives by themselves on 200 acres that person may want a different dog and training then someone that lives in the city and takes their dog with them to work.

As far as PSA, I have found that not all PPD owners want to take thier dogs to that level of training. The OB portion can be pretty difficult. I think PSA tried to address this with the PDC (protection dog cerification) but the bottom line is that it is a sport and always will be. To be honost, some of our police dogs competed a couple of years ago and had difficulty passing the obedience portion. With my police dogs I believe that you can have too much control so there is a fine line between training for trials and street work. I guess that is another thread!

Gregg

 

[Kristina Senter]

As far as my 2 cents goes...
ALL dogs are individuals and their training and venue should be adjusted individually. I've seen POS sport and street dogs as I'm sure most of you have, too. As Gregg stated, different departments will seek different dogs just as different homes will. I've seen dogs in D.C. that could hardly be fed by their own handlers- sitting, downing aint happening- don't even think about outing-, taking the dog to a school would..well....I won't go there.

No training, in any venue will ever fully match \"real life\". You can train for a scenario for weeks straight but frequently in sport and police TRAINING, you will inevitably cue you'r dog, whether you know it or not. The only thing that comes close is training that is a surprise to dog AND handler and the last time one of my local PDs tried it, an officer was shot and killed by his fellow officer. Its simply too dangerous to toy around with.

A problem that is faced often is what a dog will do during his first \"real\" bite. Being that the dogs are used to \"hidden\" suits and sleeves, many are very confused when the texture is so different and let go. The vast majority of the time, those bitten surrender immediately and bites are usually not nearly as bad as you would think. Many dogs go into a guard or re-bite over and over again. Either way, the first bite is usually enough to stop the person. Gator was solely mine to train and as such, I used some unconventional methods to ensure that we would not have a problem with this.

Never the less, none of these problems apply to the sport dog. In the police world, obedience is often problematic and therefore as several have noted, is one of the largest problems with trying to compete with a PPD. Some of it is because the officers simply dont stress it (whether they should or not), but much of it has to do with the type of dog.

-Kristina

 

[Kristina Senter]

I just realized a lot of my comments were based on PPD as in \"police patrol dog\", not \"personal protection dpg\", so......I may have totally confused you all. Sorry If I took this WAY off into left field....

-Kristina

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

As far as Mike's question goes, if you have a sport dog, and come into a situation that is dangerous, the mind set of the handler must be correct. If you have a dog that will do a bark and hold, that might be all the time you need to get back to your car, or a safer spot. That is basically what you are wanting to do, get away. You throw your dog to the wolves, and get out, call the police.

Any other mindset is dangerous. Trust me, I am not a criminal, and have no plans to be, but if you send your dog, I can guarentee the return of a dead body. Too many years of training dogs. BUT! in the time it took me to do this, you could be long gone. This is the best way.

I have a major problem with the selection of a PP dog. I feel they should be the genetic equal of a police K9. I don't see this. I have seen dogs trained for PP that will not bite me, and run off, allowing me to get to their handler. This is why I feel people should seriously evaluate what they are saying is a \"good\" PP dog. If the dog happens to be stable, great. If you seriously NEED a PP dog, I would suggest a dog that reacts first, and goes oooops, sorry, as opposed to one that is stable. It doesn't take long to die, so if I have to pick, I want the lunatic.

Of course, I would probably just move. What is the point?



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[Kristina Senter]

Jeff- I agree. Its such a shame that so many \"trainers\" sell lesser dogs for twice as much to people that just don't know better as \"personal protection dogs\". At the same time, most people looking for a dog have NO idea what they're really asking for when they want a personal protection dog. I've gone in circles with people who \"want a dog that will eat someone that is'nt a liability\" ...Uhh...yeah- If you can find ME that Id buy it too!!!

The truth is that a dog that is TOO eager to bite is going to be at home when you need it because you fear it biting someone and the dog not adequately tested or trained is going to run and hide. For all reality, a good PPD needs to be a better dog in many aspects than a police K-9.

The saying \"don't send a dog into a gunfight\" is very logical to me. If you want something you can take virtually everywhere without risk of it causing a problem without you'r approval, take some classes and buy a handgun!
-Kristina

 

[Gregg Tawney]

Jeff and Kristina,

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Generally, I dont think sending your dog into a bark and hold or a bite situation is a good decision. IMO a PP dog should generally not leave the side of the handler unless the suspect forces the issue and gets within striking range of the dog on a leash. Again this is a general statement, I am sure you can come up with scenarios that would be an exception to this rule. Do I train for these exceptions, yes I do. I train for the 2% of extreem situations.

As far as bite first ask questioins later approach.....that will not fly in California unless you have a large bank account because your first bad bite is a freebee (homeowners). The second one is on you. Also, most people that want a good PP dog are not willing to pay for the police dog price or do the recommended maintanance training that is required to keep them proficient (especially if they have been trained to bark and hold).

Gregg

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

I was referring to a dog that you had for sport, and didn't know if it would bite, just to give you time to get out. As far as dog legislation, well, I have never seen the American public leave, and or put, a bigger bunch of idiots into office in all my years. It is like this at about every level. Then we all sit by and watch them take away our rights as Americans, and all we do is bitch. I figure they will outlaw dogs here pretty soon, and we will all have curfews.......... :lol:



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[Greg Long]

Most sport dogs give a level of comfort and peace of mind to their owners.Most is false security.Some dogs will rise to the challenge of a real threat in spite of their sport training.
I must agree with Al on the need for no routine and constant changing training environment.Otherwise no stability.JMO.

Greg

 

[Kristina Senter]

Gregg,
You may have heard the expression \"bark and die\"..its a police thing that shown how much K9 handlers just love the idea of a bark and hold. My dog knows what it means but never would I send the dog to a bark and hold. In fact, we've worked with it so little that if there were ANY threat, he would probably bite anyway. Not practical. If they're not threatening enough to be bitten, I'm not killing my dog over it. If they have a weapon and I see it, I'm shooting them.

Likewise, I would never want a dog that bites without a command or overt cause. I don't think that would fly in ANY state. I think Jeff was referring more to the mentality of the dog. I think you need that mentality and then to train control and scenarios.

-Kristina