PPD dogs competing in Sport

I think those are good points Jeff. But I'm guessing there are many, many excellent PPD dogs out there in homes and businesses that would \"be there\" if things got bad. I'm presuming that those dogs don't get the attention because they're not in trials, etc. and apparently no bad guys are breaking in and getting mauled enough to give them any attention. :mrgreen:

I've found, in my limited dog training experience, that one of the benefits of sport and training clubs, as opposed to training with just one or two other people, is that one has the opportunity to discover training gaps for their PPD or sport dogs. I recently have done some training with some ASR guys and found some areas where we need to improve, and we have. Another benefit is that people active in sports and clubs train more frequently, or so I believe, than some of the PPD dog owners and so their dogs maintain a necessary level of readiness.

To give you an analogy, we could probably take a group of Delta Force commandos and send them on a year long vacation to lay on the beach, drink beer, and watch football all the time and they'd still be a respectable group of fighting men, but they wouldn't be in \"game day\" shape as they were when they were training all the time and it would show. Along the same lines I think it's not accurate to assess a PPD dog as being weak when the reality may be that that dog simply has not been training or training enough or training the right way in some time, if ever. Take that \"weak\" PPD dog, train it right and train often and with a little time we might find that the dog is actually pretty good. So often times, if not most of the time, it's probably less the dog than it is the incorrect or insufficient training and frequency of training.

But if you were training a genetically strong dog to be a \"great\" (don't ask me to define \"great\"... :wink: ) real-world protection dog, would you train it the same way as you would for sport or would you notch up the training in order to make it better on the street and would such training then diminish the dog's scoring on the field?

I'd also like to add that there is such thing as physical toughness and then there is psychological toughness. In other words, a physically tough PPD dog might be very strong in a street fight but might stumble with the psychological \"games\" of the decoys found in protection sports. Obviously that PPD dog should also be worked to withstand this type of pressure too, otherwise that PPD dog is not fully ready.

On the other hand, my impression of sport dogs is that they are conditioned to handle the psychological pressure that is put onto them; but that they deal much less with, if at all, the realities of a not only a big, loud and intimidating bad guy, but one that actually inflicts painful (but not injurious) strikes and kicks on them not once, but repeatedly. I believe in this approach to training a PPD WHEN IT IS DONE INCREMENTALLY and done only when the dog is ready for the progressions. Why? It teaches the dog that it can take punishment, stay in the fight and WIN! If a sport dog has not been through this process then it has not been tested and it may falter in such a real-world scenario.

At least these are my impressions and my beliefs. I may be mistaken. And so that is the reason I have shared my thoughts with others here and have asked for their feedback. Thank you.

I agree with Jose's comment about ever changing scenarios. Other HUGE influences on what a dog will or will not do in a real life scenario is the character of the dog and the skills of the helper work. At our club (sport), the dogs becomed accostumed to the stick and threats from the helper at the beginning with low levels of both. They are built up to the point of real presure on the dog. Even though it's still done in a very typical sport scenario, ther will be some dogs that, by their own character, will defend in a real life situation. Others never will.
Although I've had no expierience with PPD and ever changing training scenarios, I suspect many PP dogs will still bail in a real life situation. It may take more pressure then a sport trained dog, but it STILL depends first and foremost, on the character of the dog.
I've seen any number of high level sport dogs that could switch over to PPD OR PSD with little work.
Bottom line, the best dogs of either sport or real life scenario can do the job. JMHO!

Patrick Murray said:

Thanks Jose for the input. But shouldn't a fully trained PPD be able to go out and handle a sport exercise and at least get a passing score? I would think so. But would the dog exhibit behaviors due to its training that would hinder its scoring? Thanks again.

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Hello Patrick:

My actual nickname is Al, but since there's an Al here, I could settle for Jose though that's what my mom calls me when she's mad at me... :lol: :lol: :lol:

I suppose it can. I think many does that with satisfactory results probably with cross-trained dogs with sports as its foundation. For a dog with a non-sporting foundation, it can be difficult.

Again, nothing but a calm, stable and a thinking dog for real-life work...

As far as my 2 cents goes...
ALL dogs are individuals and their training and venue should be adjusted individually. I've seen POS sport and street dogs as I'm sure most of you have, too. As Gregg stated, different departments will seek different dogs just as different homes will. I've seen dogs in D.C. that could hardly be fed by their own handlers- sitting, downing aint happening- don't even think about outing-, taking the dog to a school would..well....I won't go there.

No training, in any venue will ever fully match \"real life\". You can train for a scenario for weeks straight but frequently in sport and police TRAINING, you will inevitably cue you'r dog, whether you know it or not. The only thing that comes close is training that is a surprise to dog AND handler and the last time one of my local PDs tried it, an officer was shot and killed by his fellow officer. Its simply too dangerous to toy around with.

A problem that is faced often is what a dog will do during his first \"real\" bite. Being that the dogs are used to \"hidden\" suits and sleeves, many are very confused when the texture is so different and let go. The vast majority of the time, those bitten surrender immediately and bites are usually not nearly as bad as you would think. Many dogs go into a guard or re-bite over and over again. Either way, the first bite is usually enough to stop the person. Gator was solely mine to train and as such, I used some unconventional methods to ensure that we would not have a problem with this.

Never the less, none of these problems apply to the sport dog. In the police world, obedience is often problematic and therefore as several have noted, is one of the largest problems with trying to compete with a PPD. Some of it is because the officers simply dont stress it (whether they should or not), but much of it has to do with the type of dog.

-Kristina

As far as Mike's question goes, if you have a sport dog, and come into a situation that is dangerous, the mind set of the handler must be correct. If you have a dog that will do a bark and hold, that might be all the time you need to get back to your car, or a safer spot. That is basically what you are wanting to do, get away. You throw your dog to the wolves, and get out, call the police.

Any other mindset is dangerous. Trust me, I am not a criminal, and have no plans to be, but if you send your dog, I can guarentee the return of a dead body. Too many years of training dogs. BUT! in the time it took me to do this, you could be long gone. This is the best way.

I have a major problem with the selection of a PP dog. I feel they should be the genetic equal of a police K9. I don't see this. I have seen dogs trained for PP that will not bite me, and run off, allowing me to get to their handler. This is why I feel people should seriously evaluate what they are saying is a \"good\" PP dog. If the dog happens to be stable, great. If you seriously NEED a PP dog, I would suggest a dog that reacts first, and goes oooops, sorry, as opposed to one that is stable. It doesn't take long to die, so if I have to pick, I want the lunatic.

Of course, I would probably just move. What is the point?