[Bob Scott]

Pete is my, now, 10yr old JRT.

You may have noticed two collars The blue one is his tie out. They are ALWAYS tied out with a plastic coated steel cable. I have yet to see any dog that didn't try and chew through a tieout in order to get in on the action.
The second collar is a locator collar. The dog wears it when he enters the earth. Once he's settled down and baying, we have a reciever that will locate the dog within inches. It is good to 15ft. Then the digging starts. The average depth is 2-4ft but I've dug out dogs as deep as 7ft. I retired from earthwork about a year ago. At 60yrs old, it was either going to keep me in shape, or kill me . I chose not to find out which one of the two. :lol: :lol:
When one dog goes to ground, all the rest MUST be tied out. If a second dog goes in, even good buddies can get into it underground. At best, the second dog will push the first into the quarry. Both are bad situations.
A CORRECT JRT is a baying dog. In otherwords, he stays back just a bit and raises he(( with the quarry till we dig to him, or he bolts the quarry.
I went with this breed after hunting with Border Terriers. The Borders are the most people soft, dog friendly terriers on the planet, but their willingness to engage the quarry with no concern about themselves, made me retire my two borders. It's a sport for me, and seeing a dog willing to get trashed and never back up, is no hunting sport IMO.
Pete hunted or 5-6yts and never took a bad bite.
MOST of the time, we let the quarry escape or we snare it for relocation. Only when they are a hinderance to farmers do we \"eliminate\" them. As I add pics of my terriers I will try and answer any questions about this very traditional form of hunting.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Earth Dogs

Pete is a great-looking dog. Bob.

I am VERY happy that you started this thread about working earth dogs.

QUOTE: I went with this breed after hunting with Border Terriers. The Borders are the most people soft, dog friendly terriers on the planet, but their willingness to engage the quarry with no concern about themselves, made me retire my two borders. It's a sport for me, and seeing a dog willing to get trashed and never back up, is no hunting sport IMO. END

Yes, this was brought home to me when my granddog Milo (BT) got a face full of porky quills, spent many hours at the vet once he was finally yanked out of the rotting log (I think it was), where he kept trying to go back in despite the faceful. You are correct that he had ZERO concern about more injury; he was just completely unwilling to back off.

I (for one) will be really interested in this information! Thanks!

In fact, maybe it could be moved -- with the photo -- to a section about sport dogs. Mike?

P.S. Milo is ten now, too. It shocks me that he could be ten, because it's so clear in my mind when he was a monster puppy, zooming through the house and taking a bite out of every ankle he passed. (He did become trained. )

 

[Bob Scott]

Pete is 10, my Border is 13. BOTH still could be mistaken for a 5-6yr old dog. Thats even with Pete being blind in lne eye and with a bad back.
Most of these guys will be wuite active till 15-16.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

locator

Have you had the locators all along, or are they newish?

Also, is it true that BTs and other earth dogs have strong tails (from breeding for them, I mean) so that they could be pulled out of a hole by the farmer (or handler) if they got stuck?

 

[Bob Scott]

The locators aren't to new. They were originall developed for hunting rabbits with ferrets. Another british tradition. The ferrets are sent into the hole to flush the rabbits for the dogs. If the ferrits made a fas kill in the ground, they wouldn't come out tilll the rabbit was finished off. That could take a day or two.
The traditional way of locating a dog in the ground was by using an iron rod much in the way old time car mechanics would locate a noisy valve. Put the rod to your ear and move it around till you came to the loudest spot on the ground. The REAL oldtimers were quite accurate with this method. I've tried it. It works, but I prefer the new age stuff. :wink: BT's are required to have a strong tail for that reason. Still, if the dog isn't \"tailed\" correctly, the tail could get broken. the story I've heard on docking is most of the short tailed breeds were docked for more of a taxation thing. At one point in history, working dogs had thier tails docked That avoided having to pay taxes on them as livestock. Pets had the tail left on. I suspect many pets were quickly religated to the working class. :lol:
The Border was often used to work with Otterhounds. The Border standards call for \"Head like that of an Otter\".

 

[susan tuck]

Bob, all these are really great shots! I don't know how you keep up with the terriers! About 8 years ago I had a friend who had a JRT that looked similar to yours. She did flyball with him. Her dog had a \"broken coat\", but she used to shave the \"rough\" parts of it to make him look all smooth (she thought it looked better!). :roll:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

.....the story I've heard on docking is most of the short tailed breeds were docked for more of a taxation thing. At one point in history, working dogs had thier tails docked That avoided having to pay taxes on them as livestock. Pets had the tail left on. I suspect many pets were quickly religated to the working class. :lol: .....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I can see that. Fido is handed a pair of overalls and a pitchfork to reduce the tax bill!

BTs DO have otter-heads, too; that's a good way to say it.

I love the description I have read of them: \"a workmanlike little fellow in a plain brown suit.\"

 

[Kristina Senter]

It's actually pretty funny- I've long described the Malinois as a VERY large Jack Russel or Border terrier. Funny how similar they are when hearing you talk about you'r dogs.
Nice, pictures, by the way. Its great to see diverse topics!
-Kristina

 

[Bob Scott]

Pete and Polly both have pretty long coats but I still hand strip them. Polly looks like a cute little Benji dog in long coat. Pete's coat is very uneaven and he is BUTT UGLY with a capital BU, when he needs to be stripped. Everything gets 2-3in long except his legs and head. :roll:
All three coats, smooth, broken, rough can be born in one litter.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Pete and Polly both have pretty long coats but I still hand strip them. Polly looks like a cute little Benji dog in long coat. Pete's coat is very uneaven and he is BUTT UGLY with a capital BU, when he needs to be stripped. Everything gets 2-3in long except his legs and head. :roll:
All three coats, smooth, broken, rough can be born in one litter.

I didn't know smooth could be in the same litter. I have never even seen a smooth BT.

Mt daughter's two are hand-stripped, but I like how they look when they need it. It looks like feathers.

 

[Bob Scott]

Connie, just the JRTs although the Borders wil have some variety in their coats. My dog Rag's dad never needed anything other then a little tidying up.
The fox terrier today is classified as two different breed. The smooth and the wire. Befoer the mid 30s, is wasn't uncommon for both coats to show up in one litter. People selected for one or the other so often, they were declaired separate breeds. Same with the Norwich and Norfolk terriers. different ear carrage. ther were classified as a separate breed in the states as reciently as the 70s I think. Lots of breeds are nothing more then the results of selecting a particular trait, and breeding fir it.
The dominant color gene in the GSD is the sable (Thunder's color). You RARELY see it in the show ring cause it ain't purdy to them folks. :roll: yet it's quite common in working lines. Color isn't near as important a factor to people that select for function.
In Europe, the B Malinois, B Shepherd, B Tervurn (sp) and B Lackinois(sp) could once be found in same litters.
I'll get some flack from this probably, but the Dutch Shepherd was originally a brindle Malinois. Very old pics of GSDs will show an occasional brindle colored dog.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

OK, this answers a lot, and also explains why I have not seen a smooth BT.

So -- smooth and wire Fox Terrier. Now that they are separate breeds, if a smooth one shows up in a wire litter, is it a breed fault?

Or can't it happen, because of how far back it has been bred out ?

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

I have been told the dutchie was a brindle mal as well.

 

[Bob Scott]

hard to say if or how often it happens now. I doubt most big breeders would own up to it.
The Westie is another example. It was originally bred from the occasional white Cairn that popped up. the history says that a particular hunter, a Col. E. D. Malcom accidentally shot one of his dark terriers, mistaking it for a fox. He vowed to breed only light colored dogs. Thus the beginning of the Westie! I did now a lady that raised BOB Westies, and she told me of an occasional dark pup in her litters. ALL on the hush hush, of course. :lol:
The JRT was once just a particular (the Parson John Russell) breeders line of fox terrier.
I could go on forever with this but I think you got the drift. MOST breeds are intentionally man made, or at least created by a lack of travel from one town to the other. A particular dog becomes the dominant stud dog in a given area for no other reason then he is the baddest dude in the \"hood\", OR he is intentionaly bred to because of his working abilities. The prodegy of that dog become popular, and are eventually referred to by the name of their town. Manchester Terriers, for example! Thus a new breed is created/evolves I AM going on forever aren't I! :wink:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

New Breeds

<<< Manchester Terriers, for example! Thus a new breed is created/evolves >>>>

Oh, right! And then I imagine it takes some time before the various registries actually recognize a new breed AS a breed.

Here's a question: Why are Terriers in a group by themselves in conformation competitions? To me, they are obviously divided along other lines, like hunting and other working dogs.

 

[Bob Scott]

Hard to say why these decisions were made. Not all terriers are earth dogs. Airedales, Kerrys, etc, all have some common ancestry. The airdale for instance is thought to be a cross between the old black and tan terrier an the otterhound. The Kerry is thought to be (by some) to be a cross with the Soft Coated Wheaten and a Spanish dog that was shipwrecked. Possibly a Portuges Water Dog. The Miniature Schanauzer is only classifyed as a terrier here in the states. In it's home orgin, Germany, it's a working dog, same as the standard and giant.
Sight hounds and scent hound are both in the hound class, yet they hunt in two totally differnent ways. Why is the Dalmation a nonsporting dog? It served a definate purpose as a carriage dog.
I recall when the working group was split into the working and herding groups. Lots of GSD folks wanted to be considered a working dog, yet the name speaks for it's beginnings even though it was always considered a watchdog also.
All I can say is, It's the fad of the day that creates these things. Who knows what's down the line in 20 30 yrs?!
Few dog breed registries are more then 100-125 yrs old. The first dog shows were in the late 1800s. This is when a lot of dogs started getting classifyed and registered, yet TYPES of dogs have been recognized since the Roman and Egyptain days. Herders, hunters, wardogs, guard dogs, Running dogs, lap dogs, etc.
The Rotty is always given credit for German origin because of the town of Rotewiel (sp), yet it can be traced back to cattle drovers guard dogs from the Roman era. Go figure! :roll:
I gotta hit the sack! :wink:

 

[Hil Harrison]

Nice dog Bob, he sure doesnt look 10