[Connie Sutherland]

Pano is afflicting a forum member's GSD, and we thought it might be a good subject to open up here.

So far, we know that it's a self-limiting disease, and other than that, there are varying opinions on every aspect, except that overfeeding can be a contributing factor.

http://www.gsdhelpline.com/pano.htm

Have any of the forum members limited exercise during Pano, or allowed the dog to call it?

I know many say to stop puppy kibble at a sign of Pano.

Anu other experiences/suggestions?

 

[ann schnerre]

after reading the link connie posted, and a few other sites/threads. poor brix is gonna have to gut it out another 5 days b/f i take him to the vet.

he's a week short of 10 mo old., he's a GSD, he's heavy-boned (but he's NOT been on "large-breed puppy food" since 4 mo), and i'm evidently not enough of a hard-a$$ to elicit a "pain response" by pinching his long bones: he bites at me no matter where i pinch.... :roll:

i'll try that again tomorrow to ascertain his repsonse a bit more--it seemed to me to be more "pain" then "annoyance" in the long bone tonight: annoyance tends to be "mouthing" (ie, toenail trimming), pain more a bite. it'd be great if i had someone more experienced to restrain him so i could read his response better. 'course, a firm bite kinda tells me something, too...

to backward a bit: he showed barely noticeable signs of lameness on his right foreleg on monday past, it has increased daily (in spite of him being on cage-rest) every day, to the point of very noticeable lameness. he's putting approx. 40% weight on his foreleg. i haven't treated him w/pain relievers b/c i feel that pain is mother nature's way of saying "be easy"--let him listen to her and stay off it.

there's no obvious injury to shoulder/leg/pastern/pad, though he could've put a foot wrong and wrenched something. the problem with that theory is that it should be improving w/cage rest, and it's not.

input/ideas/suggestions??
and thanks,
ann

 

[Bob Scott]

One club member swears up, down and sideways that he gets a dog through Pano by putting them on a green bean diet. Not totally, but it makes up a good percentage of the meal.

 

[ann schnerre]

love ya bob--but screw that, if anyone gets green beans around here it's ME. brix can limp around and get loved on by the girl while i eat!! :lol:

 

[Bob Scott]

love ya bob--but screw that, if anyone gets green beans around here it's ME. brix can limp around and get loved on by the girl while i eat!! :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: CAUTION!! Don't get in between Ann and her green beans! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

One club member swears up, down and sideways that he gets a dog through Pano by putting them on a green bean diet. Not totally, but it makes up a good percentage of the meal.

This is not "out there," Bob! I know (and have read) handlers and breeders who use green beans (such as canned with no sodium). It's not really directly associated with Pano; it's indirect. Vegetables (and green ones are the least caloric, in general) are substituted for part of the regular food to keep weight under control. (Growing dogs should not have a reduced-fat, reduced-protein diet; instead, the amounts of everything across the board is reduced if the pup is too heavy, and it's less miserable for the hungry dog if something very low in calories like green beans, broccoli, etc., helps fill out the dish.)

There is also a lot of talk, especially by one or two well-known Great Dane breeders, about Nzymes (supplement) for Pano. There's probably nothing wrong with it, as long as there's no soy allergy and as long as Vitamin A isn't duplicated in some other component of the diet in an amount to exceed the RDA by a lot. It's mainly a vitamin supplement. JMO.

About Brix, I'd be watching him, since he's getting worse even though he's on enforced rest. I'd be sure to rule out trauma (broken bone, etc.).

I think it's important to have him on a balanced diet (not supplementing with calcium, for example) and not to overfeed or feed anything high in protein or calcium. What food is he on?

You mentioned that he's big-boned. Is he a little heavy, too?

 

[Liz Monty]

A friend of mine who has two alaskan malamute feeds green beens all the time. Her dogs where healthy and happy. She would add a ton of green beans to their regular kibble to entice them to eat, but it worked out great for them. Just not to long ago, I read somewhere that green beens are very nutritious for dogs, but I can't remember where

 

[Connie Sutherland]

A friend of mine who has two alaskan malamute feeds green beens all the time. Her dogs where healthy and happy. She would add a ton of green beans to their regular kibble to entice them to eat, but it worked out great for them. Just not to long ago, I read somewhere that green beens are very nutritious for dogs, but I can't remember where

Yup, green beans are high in fiber but not too high in the cellulose that dogs have trouble with, and as long as they aren't salted, they are a good addition (IMO).

My own opinion is that supplementing kibble with fresh food is an excellent thing to do.

 

[Bob Scott]

A friend of mine who has two alaskan malamute feeds green beens all the time. Her dogs where healthy and happy. She would add a ton of green beans to their regular kibble to entice them to eat, but it worked out great for them. Just not to long ago, I read somewhere that green beens are very nutritious for dogs, but I can't remember where

Yup, green beans are high in fiber but not too high in the cellulose that dogs have trouble with, and as long as they aren't salted, they are a good addition (IMO).

My own opinion is that supplementing kibble with fresh food is an excellent thing to do.

Does that mean they wouldn't have to be purried (sp) like most veggies in a RAW diet?

 

[Liz Monty]

Bob, my friend just gives them natural, right from the can. Not the fresh, hard ones, but the canned ones.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

They would not have to be processed, I agree, because canned vegetables are very VERY cooked.

It's important to get no-salt-added, because canned vegetables are also extremely high in sodium.

They are low in vitamin C because of the cooking at high heat, but they are still filling, and still retain iron, folate, potassium, etc.

 

[Bob Scott]

Would there be additional benifit if they were fed raw? I'm guessing THEN they would have to be sent through the blender?

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Would there be additional benifit if they were fed raw? I'm guessing THEN they would have to be sent through the blender?

Ha -- you have entered the land of BIG DISAGREEMENT!

Many people (experts and non-) maintain that raw but processed produce is best for dogs.

I lean toward cooking (like steaming or blanching) unless it's very young tender greens or ripe fruit. My own theory is that in the wild, dogs would eat those, but other produce would usually be in the form of partly-digested prey contents, and that maybe cooking is close to partly-digesting.

Others believe that processing makes it more like that.

Of course, cooking does destroy some enzymes and many water-soluble vitamins.

But I feed enough blueberries, young greens, occasional low-sugar fruits, etc., so I think I cover what is cooked out of other produce.

So there ya go. Sorry you asked? :lol:

The simple answer is yes, if it's raw, dogs can't digest produce with firm cell walls (beans, broccoli, etc.) unless it's processed first.

 

[Bob Scott]

NEVER sorry I ask you a question! :wink:

 

[ann schnerre]

ok, i really thought bob was just pulling my (sound) leg w/the green bean thing, but i guess maybe not....still, green beans steamed w/a red onion, the water reduced, a splash of balsamic vinegar......nope, not sharing

anyway, brix is on royal canin GSD adult (and has been since he was 4 mo old), he's about 80#, and NOT heavy (fat), though he could perhaps lose another 3#. i can easily feel his last 5 ribs, and see (when the light's right) the last 2.

the only other food he gets is cooked liver for food rewards and beef shank bones to keep him occupied when crated. oh--and the occasional horse-manure treat from the pasture :roll:

i also pinched his long-bones today & got a response there but no where else. if he's not improving by tuesday, we'll be going to see dr. cathy (who's the first vet i've ever met who LIKES skinny dogs!), get an x-ray or 2 maybe...

 

[Ken Thompson]

I hope we can get more details on pano. My 11 month old has been through pano three times and seems to be going through it again. It usually last 2 to 3 weeks and the next time, it will move to a different leg. When it's all over she gets back to playing like normal.

She seems to go through these growing spurts and looks real skinny for a while. Then she will put back on some weight. The vet said to give her some calicum but I have heard different opinions about it so I need more information before I do that.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

One of the factors that some researchers believe might contribute to the possibility of pano is calcium supplementation.

One thing I personally have never considered, panosteitis or not, is a calcium supplement. A dog's most important micronutrient ratio, IMO, is the calcium/phosphorous ratio. Oversimplifying, that would be the ratio of bones (calcium) to meat (phosphorous) in the dog's natural diet.

Since pano presents with abnormally dense bone area, I would want to hear a very good explanation of why extra calcium, a bone-building material, was warranted. (Good instinct, Ken.)

Is your dog's pano related to the growth spurts? (Pano in dogs and in children is often called "growing pains.")

Some people believe at the moment that low protein, low calcium diets may prevent this condition. I've never seen authoritative research to indicate this. Something that makes more sense to me is a balanced and normal diet with less food given. There are a few reasons for this: Dogs who grow slowly and steadily seem to have much lower pano occurences; dogs who have a little too much weight seem to be more prone to it.

As mentioned earlier, some reduce the diet, while keeping it balanced, and fill in with low-calorie, low-sugar produce to keep the dog from being too unhappy with the decreased amount.

It is, of course, self-limiting. At that age, your dog is approaching the usual 14-month (approximately) cutoff. That's not 100%, but I understand that it's pretty reliable.

I think the advice about limiting exercise during pano is probably good, because it's an ailment of inflammation. Inflammation isn't a good thing for any part of the system.

If your dog isn't already on Omega 3s in the form of salmon oil (plus Vitamin E), I'd start it. It won't have the same direct benefit the way it does for OA and other joint disease (and many other ailments), but it is a potent anti-inflammation agent with no downside, so it can be of some benefit.

If you are trying to choose pain meds, I can link you to info, if you want.

All JMO. I'm not a health professional.

 

[Ken Thompson]

Connie, Jetta's pano seems to be related to when she is going through a growing spurt. When I bought her at nine weeks old she was 23 lbs and had huge feet. I knew she was going to be quite large. Today she is back to normal, wanting to play.

I haven't played ball or anything really since her first case of pano. I have let her play with my five month old the other day but I don't think I will do that again ( a little rough playing ).

I feed Chicken Soup Adult food and also give chicken leg quarters, raw hamburger and an egg three times a week. Do you think this is to much protein?

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Connie, Jetta's pano seems to be related to when she is going through a growing spurt. When I bought her at nine weeks old she was 23 lbs and had huge feet. I knew she was going to be quite large. Today she is back to normal, wanting to play.

I haven't played ball or anything really since her first case of pano. I have let her play with my five month old the other day but I don't think I will do that again ( a little rough playing ).

I feed Chicken Soup Adult food and also give chicken leg quarters, raw hamburger and an egg three times a week. Do you think this is to much protein?

Is her weight good? Does she have a nice waistline, etc.?

I wish I was a real expert at pano, but I'm not. I'm not a puppy expert at all, except for a lot of research. What I have learned from all the research is that overfeeding (that is, enough food so that the pup is a little plump) seems to be a common precursor.

 

[Ken Thompson]

Connie, she has a good waistline and you can see ribs. I could cut back a little but not very much. She would look like I starving her. When she is in one of the growing spurts, she looks like I'm starving her. Jerry saw her several months ago and said her weight looked good (not over weight).